THF state fair grand champions??

[CCW]

According to my math you will get 75% carriers. 50% will have 1 TH gene. 25% will be double carriers with 2 TH genes, also known as DEAD calves. 25% will be free of TH.

If you breed a TH clean animal to a TH carrier, then you will get 50% with 1 TH gene. 50% will be TH free.

If you have the theory that only TH carriers will make great show prospects, then all you are doing by breeding double carriers is eliminating 25% of your calf crop that could have been culls sent to the sale barn and exchanging them for 25% of your calf crop born dead. The only positive I would see is that your creep feed bill would be less, due to less calves alive to eat it. I would think that more calves (even if they go the sale barn) would make up for any added expense related to feeding the sale barn calves.

 

[Okotoks]

Is TH the only lethal recessive people are using to create show cattle. Is there any perceived phenotype advantage to say PHA carriers or some of the other defects. (actually hope the answer to this question is no)

 

[aj]

Showsteers are fed a lot fancier diet than cattle in a lot. If the cost per pound in a feedlot is .62 cents what is the cost of gain of a show steer. Something to throw in there.

 

[iowabeef]

That is comparing apples to oranges.....the show steer industry and the feedlot industry are two seperate entities.  One is basically a family hobby and the other is a means of making a living.  Of course it is going to cost more to feed out a show steer because you are dealing with a much smaller number than a mass in a feedlot.  Bulk is always cheaper. 
This continued type of comparison is like saying that restored H's and M's should be used in field work verses the hobby tractors they are.......

 

[hntwhitetail]

Very interesting.

 

[jaimiediamond]

That is comparing apples to oranges.....the show steer industry and the feedlot industry are two seperate entities.   One is basically a family hobby and the other is a means of making a living.  Of course it is going to cost more to feed out a show steer because you are dealing with a much smaller number than a mass in a feedlot.  Bulk is always cheaper. 
This continued type of comparison is like saying that restored H's and M's should be used in field work verses the hobby tractors they are.......

I might be from a different planet but our show steers actually get placed on how they did on the rail as well as how they did on halter.  The steer posted is bred by a commercial farmer who actually feeds his own cattle out.  He may not be the winner at a steer show south of the boarder but he did place in the top 5 in the carcass portion of the competition.  The trouble with this program is you only get to show the steer once. 

 

[oakbar]

Food for thought:  Champion steers from one of the largest cattle shows in the U.S. have averaged the following carcass characteristics the last 26 years:

1286 live wt., 847# carcass, 14.6 REA, .40 fat cover, 2.6 KPH, 2.6 Yield Grade, and 68% graded choice or better


The last five year's averages(included above) are:

1317# live wt., 880# carcass, 15.6 REA, .52 fat cover, 3.2 KPH, 2.7 Yield Grade, and 80% graded choice or better


Looks to me like the "show ring"--at least at this show-- is moving in the right direction with regard to carcass characteristics!!  Think what the difference would be if the last five years weren't included in the first set of  numbers!!  I'm sure the packers would love to have a bunch of these steers hanging on their rail. JMHO 

As we progress with the technology of testing for genetic problems, etc. and the abilities to splice genes, etc.  we will almost certainly be able to benefit from the positive genes while sorting out the undesirable ones.  We are on the cusp of being offered genetic choices that more closely resemble the seed corn industry of today.  In other words, we will probably be able in the not-too-distant future be able to use semen that has not only been sexed but also has had specific genes that might be considered undesirable replaced with ones we actually want.  The limits of this technology will be determined by consumer acceptance not by lack of science.  It might make us old guys a little uncomfortable but it is the future!!  JMHO

 

[vc]

Oakbar, since they can't win that argument that the cattle wont grade, they will whine that they can't do it the real world, they have to be pampered.
Some of the commercial cattle I have seen would benefit from some clubby genetics.
We s pent a week in the Sierras this past August, the Meadows pastures where full of steers destined for the feed lots, there had to be a thousand or more of the sorriest group of calves I've ever seen. Every time we ran to town I would look at those calves and try to find one you would want to just feed out and eat, never found one.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Oakbar, since they can't win that argument that the cattle wont grade, they will whine that they can't do it the real world, they have to be pampered.
Some of the commercial cattle I have seen would benefit from some clubby genetics.
We s pent a week in the Sierras this past August, the Meadows pastures where full of steers destined for the feed lots, there had to be a thousand or more of the sorriest group of calves I've ever seen. Every time we ran to town I would look at those calves and try to find one you would want to just feed out and eat, never found one.

I think my only whine is about the genetic defect not about the rail.  To create a TH carrier show steer it means that there is a chance that a TH heifer goes to a commercial guy and later gets bred to a TH bull.  25% of those calves will be dead, equaling a unhappy commercial breeder.  There are FANTASTIC calves out there without the defect, and again fantastic bulls that could be used instead of carrier sires.    The same goes for PHA... As for the Meadow Mountains they would be better off with rangy alive steers then 1/4 of their calf crop dead. JMHO

 

[GoWyo]

As we progress with the technology of testing for genetic problems, etc. and the abilities to splice genes, etc.  we will almost certainly be able to benefit from the positive genes while sorting out the undesirable ones.   We are on the cusp of being offered genetic choices that more closely resemble the seed corn industry of today.   In other words, we will probably be able in the not-too-distant future be able to use semen that has not only been sexed but also has had specific genes that might be considered undesirable replaced with ones we actually want.  The limits of this technology will be determined by consumer acceptance not by lack of science.   It might make us old guys a little uncomfortable but it is the future!!  JMHO

And if Mon$atan or one of the other really big business conglomerates is the owner of this genetic technology, we will all become dependent on them and lose independence.

 

[oakbar]

Jaimie,

I appreciate and share your concerns about the genetic defects being passed on.  I could be wrong, but I think most heifers that are born with the TH or PHA are actually the result of pairings designed to produce steers.  I'm sure theire are very, very few people willing to give up 25% of their calf crop by intentionally pairing two parents that are both carrying genetic defects.  A more likely scenario is that they prefer to mate one parent carrying the gene  with one non-carrier.  I'm sure the logic follows that 50% will be carriers but no calves should be lost and that they may even get a few non-carriers that would exhibit the desired physical characteristics without the genetic defects.  If they are making the pairings specifically for steers, the carrier heifers produced(basically a by product) still could make very good terminal market heifers.    I agree the genetics will be in the overall population to a greater degree if a few of these heifers are kept as replacements  but I don't think there is any way to regulate it out of existence in the non-registered club calf industry.  It may actually get more people interested in buying purebred breeding animals if the breeds require testing for the genetic defects or perhaps F1 crosses from those breeds tested.    Knowledge of genetic defects is growing exponentially right now and  I personally think the ones we worry about today will become less prevalent in a relatively short time.  Its pretty likely, however, that another one we don't know about is already present in the genetics of one breed or another and that it will be the next great concern in genetics.  There are, however, a few people in the show cattle business who seem to have no regard for which bulls they pick and its hard to find a bull in their line up who doesn't carry one defective gene or another---sometimes more than one.    I believe this strategy will only be effective for a short time and, much like the horse breeds, when the superior phenotype cattle are available without the defective genes they will be the ones who gain popularity.

JMHO---Oakbar 

 

[hntwhitetail]

ttt

 

[ZNT]

I believe this strategy will only be effective for a short time and, much like the horse breeds, when the superior phenotype cattle are available without the defective genes they will be the ones who gain popularity.

I think you are correct.  And as long as there are breeders out there breeding them clean, we will get it done.

 

[hntwhitetail]

ttt... interested if anyone tried to research this.

 

[AAOK]

Just more proof the show ring leads to some major insanity. Breeding two carriers means 25% of your calf crop would be a write off! I realise you would be planning on getting that back and more on the showable calves but ...................! Maybe judges should start learning the phenotype that carriers have .. oh I guess they already know that. Originally people took out steers to exhibit because they thought they would be the best carcass and thus advertise the bulls they were selling to produce the same type. Now it's like a glorified dog show circuit . I'm guessing most dog breeders have more integrity when it comes to genetic defects. I know dog breeders who have been testing and selecting against defects for years.

(thumbsup) (thumbsup) (thumbsup) (thumbsup)
In my humble Ozarkian opinion, TH and PHA carriers should be sent on a one-way trip to Tama, Iowa. That's my opinio0n, anyway, so take it for what it's worth.

GB

Hey, GB.  Getting closer to moving up your direction.  Just started the Job Hunt.

 

[T-Majic]

I read most of the comments on this topic and I would have to say that I checked my bulls this year because of the Th and Ph. I knew they werent Ph I guess but I don't want to take the chance of having a Th calf if I know my herd bull is positive carrier. I only have a couple cow that could possibly be Th but will know keep those cows away from my Th carnac carrier and not AI them to Th carrier club calf bulls. Yout can tell a difference though, before I tested them I was pretty sure I knew one was a carrier and wasn't. The Carnac was a carrier and the Sunseeker wasn't  but the good thing is I got calves out of the sunseeker this year and I like them as replacements and they are for sale!!! <rock>