This will be an interesting Fall to see results of the Angus Production Sales!

[KYsteer]

I wonder if there is almost an indifference to Curly Calf on this site as the majority of breeders on here would consider themselves to put a pretty high emphasis on phenotype.  I think that most people would agree that 1680 cattle are not that impressive to look at.  Just look at the Gardiner or Wehrmann catalog and see for yourself.  PHA and TH did affect the cattle that this forum is mostly interested in.  Therefore we tended to be more passionate about those defects.  Curly Calf will have a significant affect on the breed as a lot of the large big money breeders will be affected by this.  If anything this will be an opportunity for some new guys to get their genetics and programs some more exposure, as people will probably be a little more open minded and will not just follow the big guys for their breeding guidance.

 

[Show Heifer]

Ya know what? I DO NOT feel sorry for the breeders that COVERED up CCS. Just like I didn't feel sorry for those that covered up the TH/PHA. Sorry, no sympathy here. Regardless of breed.
And DL beat me to the punch, but the associations handling of these defects are not even close. IMHO, the shortie and maine assoc hide behind the "lawsuit" and "nothing proven" banner until it could no longer hide. The angus assoc not only came forth with the defect BEFORE the DNA test, but also named the "suspect" animal. The difference between the assoc is night and day.

And dusty, if feel sorry for you if your vet didn't know of TH/PHA. Just goes to show ya that even "people in the know" still DON'T KNOW. And that is why education and continually pointing out carriers is important....just like it will be in the angus breed and CCS.

And no, I have no 1680 genetics. But, when the test comes out, I will be the first to pull blood and test, just in case a "lurker" is out there. (I test all my maine and shortie influenced cattle, regardless of "pedigree" - in case there is a "mistake" in a pedigree)

 

[dori36]

I'm possibly attending the Michigan Ass'n Angus Sale October 4th to bid for a friend who can't be there.  He's looking at a cow (bred) and a yearling heifer out of her, also bred, among others.  Both females are 1680 bred. but the sire of the calves they're carrying is an outcross to him.  He's looking to possibly pick them up cheap and cross them next year on a Lowline bull to start a grassfed meat herd.  Or, he'll use the cows as recips.  I'll also be interested to see if CCS is even discussed back at the chutes.  Or whether other than the stinkin' economy here in Michigan that could hold prices down, if the prices on 1680 cattle are affected. Depending on what end of the cattle/beef biz one's in, there are probably some hellish good deals awaiting some people.  Heck, if the cattle are irresistibly low priced, I may pick up a couple for myself to breed to my Lowline bull and raise the calves for meat. 

 

[chambero]

Yall aren't kidding about 1680 showing up in tons of cattle.  I got a couple of catalogs in the mail this week from semi-local Angus breeders and you can find him in probably half those animals listed in there.  I haven't looked up the papers on some of our older Angus bulls yet, but I bet we've got some in there as the ranch we've bought a lot of cattle from were pretty tight with Gardiners.

 

[kanshow]

This has the potential to affect a lot of cattle producers.  I'm not so scared of it for ourselves as we don't use a lot of Angus genetics.  I'm sure we have some cows with 1680 behind them but I'd be surprised if there are any with 1680 stacked in a pedigree.  I will have to do some checking .    We have used Retail Product sired SimAngus bulls on commercial cows.  But those were mostly terminal type so I'm sure we kept very few (if any) replacements.  But we also have some SimAngus heifers that go back to 1680 thru Integrity.  I doubt carrier status will result in selling any cows (at least at our place) but just cause for not doubling up in the future. 

 

[inthebarnagain]

I heard that there are 150,000+ 1680 influence cattle - LOTS of testing to do

 

[Doc]

My take on this one is that it will be manageable once there is a test available.  Don't panic and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.    I would not be too hasty in getting rid of my carrier cows either - especially if they bring a lot of other attributes to the table.   

Kanshow, this isn't directed all towards you, but I think this will be the attitude of a lot of people because it involves the angus breed. But that sure wasn't the same take when the shoe was on the Shortie foot. Everyone was yelling the sky was falling & get rid of anything that was a carrier & don't let anything sired by a carrier be registered. I think it's funny that a lot of people are going to have a double set of standards.

 

[Show Heifer]

Exactly who is going to have a double standard?

Every angus breeder I have talked to (except one), is darn near in a flat panic due to this defect and the possibility of it getting to the commercial herds. Maybe it is because most angus breeders make their money with the commercial cattleman where as most shortie breeders do not. I don't know, but, I do know, I stand by my theory with TH/PHA. TEST when a test is available and be honest with the results.

I think part of the panic is in part due to the early release of the bloodline affected. Something that the other breeds did not do. They waited until a test was available to "prove" it. THis early release of information, which I agree with, only increased "concern".

Has anyone thought about all the "crossbred" registered cattle? Such as the Maine Angus, Simmi Angus, or those "BWF herefords"??? This is BIG.

So again I ask, who is going to have a double standard?

 

[Doc]

So again I ask, who is going to have a double standard?

I just find it ironic that with the Angus it's don't sell your carriers it can be managed. But with the Shorties it wasn't the same from a lot of people . It's not a good situation for any breed when this happens. Wether it's a big breed or small it still affects the individual breeder the same.

 

[Show Heifer]

Doc, I understand what you are saying....but from MY experience.....the angus breeders I have talked to really honestly want to get a test so they can SELL their carriers to slaughter. The clubbie folks I talked to said they could managed PHA/TH. I did talk to one angus breeder that has a heavy influence of 1680 and he said he wasn't worried about it. He would continue to do what he has done, even though he had a CCS calf last year.
So honestly, I do not think it is much different, there are "that type of breeder" in every breed. Heck, I bet they even have them in the belted cattle breed!!!

 

[Show Dad]

Until the test is ready my 1680 influenced animals are not for sale. But when there is a test I will only sell clean ones. The positive ones are for slaughter. If I have a positive cow she will go early to the slaughter only lot in the sale barn. Might be painful but integrity of breeding stock is most important not show ring look.

If I have sold a positive calf I will offer to buy it back or trade for clean one. Then slaughter lot it goes.

 

[6M Ranch]

If 1680 and his progeny are the cause, why has it taken this long to show up.  Even then, only a handful of calves have been found.  According to the AAA website, as of 09/15, 48 calves have been reported, one of which doesn't have 1680.  1680 was born in 1990, and there are probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions of cattle, with 1680 on both sides of the pedigree.  If it's a simple recessive gene, wouldn't there be a 1 in 4 chance of this occuring, with an additional chance of 2 in 4 of the cattle being a carrier?  There should be thousands of these calves out there.  If I were a detective, I would be looking for some other commonality, other than something with an occurence rate of less than .00004%.  Maybe I'm missing something here, I was probably asleep that day in biology class.

 

[BIGTEX]

What I find so amazing is the reaction.  When PHA was released prior to the test anyone that happened to have a carrier cow was considered pond scum by the masses on this board, everyone was sure there was a cover up, they should have known they had a carrier etc....  and yet from what I am reading they should have known about this as far back as 2004 and everyone is applauding the AAA for such a speedy release, am I missing something?
As far as cancelling a production sale, families that make their livelihood from that yearly production sale would find it very difficult to just cancel and have no income for the year, those with an outside income may go that route. 

People still do act like everyone who uses TH/PHA are pond scum. ( I wonder how many people on this site use or have dirty genetics in their program especially now) I guess these same people should want to dig a big trench and shove all of these cattle in it. What happens if a defective bull that jumps a neighbors fence and breeds his cows??? Come on purebred breeders where you at?

 

[aj]

A stillborn or aborted calf might be overlooked as natural causes...I'm with you 6m...but thats all I can think of. I remeber having a th looking defective calf like 10 years ago before I had heard of th. I am not sure it was th but I just assumed it was eniromental at that time. But thinking back I now wonder.

 

[DL]

A stillborn or aborted calf might be overlooked as natural causes...I'm with you 6m...but thats all I can think of. I remeber having a th looking defective calf like 10 years ago before I had heard of th. I am not sure it was th but I just assumed it was eniromental at that time. But thinking back I now wonder.

aj - I think you are right - if you have 1 weird calf most people don't think genetic, don't think necropsy - they think phase of the moon bad karma - SSS.

SD - good for you - that has been my approach too

M6 - I think there are a couple of answers to your questions - but basically there has to be a large enough prevalence of carriers and a large enough people who recognize the cause could be genetic and care before recessive mutations are recognized as an issue. Draft Pick was born in 1989 and Improver in 1972. I do think your numbers are way off - my understanding is that there are thousands NOT hundreds of thousands or millions of registered cattle with 1680 on both sides -

 

[6M Ranch]

I'm not counting just registered calves, but all possible progeny with 1680 on both sides.  It just seems to me it would have shown up earlier.

 

[Show Dad]

Until I had a conversation with DL I would have written it off as "stuff happens." Especially if it was one calf. Maybe if the same cow had it a second time I would have sold her (slaughter) as a bad cow. But now I will always think genetics first and get the calf to a vet or K-State. All because of DL!!! 8)

 

[DL]

I'm not counting just registered calves, but all possible progeny with 1680 on both sides.  It just seems to me it would have shown up earlier.

6M - as of July 1, 2007 the US had 104.8 million head of cattle - hard to believe millions were double bred 1680. CCS is also showing up in Australia, generally double bred 1680 but a few with a 1680 ancestor on one side. I am not trying to downplay the potential ramifications, but having access to the name of the carrier (from the association no less) is a huge advantage that breeders in other breeds did not have

SD - you will now forever think genetics! It is both a curse and a blessing -but darn you wear it well! 

 

[Show Dad]

SD - you will now forever think genetics! It is both a curse and a blessing -but darn you wear it well! 

Like an old pair of underwear.
(What a pretty picture! )

 

[6M Ranch]

DL, this bull was born in 1990.  Considering 16 years of offspring, there could be 8 generations of bulls out of 1680.  104 million is the current number of cattle, not all cattle since 1990.  I wasn't being literal when I said one million, but my point was, with thousands of potential cattle out there with 1680 on both sides, I'm just surprised this hasn't surfaced earlier.  I wasn't saying it wasn't genetic, it probably is, but I'm just surprised we are just now seeing it.