To fudge or not to fudge, that is the question!

[rtmcc]

In addition to raising some show cattle,  we sell a few bulls a year to commercial cow/calf producers and other pure bred herds.  Nothing will lose you a bull customer faster than a false birth weight record and the resulting big dead calves and wrecked cows.  There is many reasons that their weaning and yearling weights change from year to year as there is with BW and calving problems.  But your bull WILL get blamed if they have a bad year calving and hadn't in the past.  Not that light BW bulls can't sire hard calving and heavy calves.  But if you cut the outliers for both birth weight and body shape you will have more repeat bull customers.

We love a great show calf as much as any body but you can't show them all.  Some of them have to produce the next generation of beef production.

 

[dutch pride]

Just curious; those of you who say you cut everything over a certain weight, do you do it right then and there when you weigh them or mark them to be cut later?

DLZ

 

[rtmcc]

We cut most of ours at weaning time so they can be included in our contemporary groups for performance data.  We weigh EVERY calf on a scale at birth and record all information about the birth, mothering ability and length of gestation.  I know "contemporary groups" may not be in the show cattle producers vocabulary, but having a small herd we struggle to keep our groups big enough so that the data is relevant.

What about heifers that are heavy BW or hard pulls?  What should be done with them?  If they are good enough we will give them a chance for in herd use and really watch what we breed them to.  Often times these are your stoutest, best show calves.

 

[braunvieh]

We don't cut anything until weaning at the earliest. That is just the way we do it. But, those that we determine are too big at birth are in the 1st round to be cut. Along with those with poor dispositions, we don't tolerate the poor dispositions either. It has hurt me several times to band the best bull b/c we didn't like the disposition. I think that can be a wrecker for customers too, BW and disposition. I think with females there is alot more give and take but not with bulls. You have a herd full of cows and only a bull or two and that is why I think the bulls have to be the best of the best to make it. They make the biggest mark in a herd, and can do so very quickly.

 

[aj]

A tape is better than nothing. Oakbar...great post. What does close mean? The best way is to have two people there and actually weigh the calf. I'll admitt...a couple days ago I was tagging,tatooeing, and weighing a baby calf. Cow did a friendly head butt that broke the frame of my glasses and lossened some teeth. I did guestimate the bwt on this calf. It was a 90# heifer calf in my estimation. I will never use a bull with a guesstimate of a birth weight though.

 

[OH Breeder]

Just curious; those of you who say you cut everything over a certain weight, do you do it right then and there when you weigh them or mark them to be cut later?

DLZ

We weigh at birth and we cut at weaning. Use to band but have had better luck with cutting them.

 

[justintime]

I have been banding all male calves over 110 lb for 7 or 8 years now, and have not had any complaints from my bull buyers ever since I started doing this . A discussion with a large order buyer a year ago started me thinking. He said that the beef industry's obsession with low birth weight was producing more and more calves that were short bodied. I have been told that 1 inch extra length in the middle of a finished steer is approximately 80 extra pounds. If that is so, how much extra does a calf that is 1 inch longer weigh? How do we evaluate calving ease as it has to be considered in the equation of what to keep a bull and what to band?

I find that the bulls in the lowest 50% of our birth weights are also in the lowest gaining bulls we have. Last year we did not have a solitary bull in the lowest half for birth weight, index 100 or more for ADG or WPDA. So what is this saying ... or is it saying anything. Personally, I think we need to use some caution and also some common sense. We do not want to breed the performance out of these cattle, but we also don't want to continue to produce bulls that produce monster births. I am still banding my calves over 110, but I am wondering just where that magical line is.

 

[Freddy]

I have a neighbor that flat out told me if I used a tape he would not buy bulls  from me an they have about fifty head of bulls when they turn out maybe more . Is a family ranch an they split it this year   but there somewhere around 2000 cow's. I use to have trouble getting accurate  weights , had one of them spring scales that you lift in front of you, if calf jumped could add 5 to 10 lbs.   I got a calf carrier mounted on 4 wheeler with didgital  scales in it an a plastic box attached to the 4 wheeler with all the contols in it an we also keep some of the taggers an things we use on the calves.  Box keeps every thing dry  an the wires come up through the bottom. It is very accurate an locks on a weight when you put calf on it, also makes it very easy to work calf . Ican send someone out to weigh calves , an feel like I will be getting accurate weights .

 

[DTW]

After reading this post several times today i had to respond. 
In the commercial and purebreds you need accurate weights for your customers.  Because you want repeat customers.  I have learned in the business world that it is much easier to maintain customers than it is to loose them and try to get new customers.  Also every customer you loose will talk to many people and lessen your market for new customers.
Now with this i agree with the post above you can go to far for selecting for low birth weights with poorer performance and shorter bodied and framed catttle which is not good for the industry.  We have to remember that ranchers and feeders sell by the pound and every pound out the door spreads your fixed cost over more weight for a lower breakeven.  And no i am not knocking the lowlines because we can get cattle to big also and get over the optimum cost of production. 
Now the show steer business is completely different been through all the full throtles full flushes and heat waves.  and like we know the first two had no bw information and the later is like cowboy put it far from the truth and in my book flat out mis advertising.
If you want to raise a great show steer or clubby bull you are going to have to accept that they are going to be 90 to 140 lbs at birth.  Been around for more than a few years to many actually and i have seen alot of great show steers and promotional bulls over the years at birth.  That have won some major shows and sired many champions.  And sorry to say that only a very few of these weighed from 90 to 100 the most were 100 to 120 lbs.  So if you want to raise those great high dollar cattle for the show ring you are going to have some calving difficulities and yes possibly c sections or some very hard pulls and loose some calves and cows to get that one great one.  And with embryo work it is not going to go away because we can use common cows to do the c sections on to save the great donor cows.
One thing that i have found very interesting lately is the number of heat wave heifers that have been winning in the breeding shows.  I have seen a few and heard of many heat waves kept for cows and lets just say that one will never be kept on this place.  They have the genes to throw big calves and from what i have seen and heard they have small pelvis and milk like a gerbal.  Had to use your quote Jbw because it fits. 
All said it would be nice if the bulls were advertised as their actual birth weights so every one knew and then you can use your own judgement to use them if you want to raise that great show steer. 
Sorry for the long post but it is a valid point.

 

[cdncowboy]

This is a very interesting discussion.  In our years as purebred breeders we actually weighed every calf, any bull calf over 120 was cut at about 3 months.  I always felt that the build of the calf was as important, if not more so than actual bw.  We had more 110 plus calves born with fewer problems than I've experienced since getting into the clubby business. 
Those really cool little babies that steer guys, I include myself here, love to see hit the ground are just not conducive to calving ease.  As the owner of our local sale barn used to say, its easier to calve a 100 pound snake than an 80 pound brick.  The rest of our commercial cows still probably out avg. the clubby bred cows for bw but those longer bodied calves just come out easier.  You can't fit a square peg in a round hole, and yes that birth canal is round.
The one thing that always used to bug me when we sold bulls was customers who loved the performance of those 100 pound bulls, would also say "my cows can't have calves that big".  Well if you asked most commercial producers what their calves weigh they seem to always say 80 lbs., if you ask 'em how many they weigh they always seem to say 0.  So many never own or use a scale, or tape for that matter on a calf.  If we toured them through our cows at calving they would always compare their calves to be the same size as theirs and be stunned when we could tell them exactly what each calf weighed.  That bugged me then and still does when I talk to guys at bull sales.
My other thought always was if you wanted to hit that magical 60% of the cows body weight at weaning, you darn well better have cows that can push out 8-10% at calving.  Those little calves is nice but they seldom have the growth potential, or hit the wall a lot faster.  Just my opinion,  and as with every thing else in the cow business what works for me may not work for you, and thats what makes it so darn interesting.

 

[DTW]

Very good point.  And in the clubby business the calves are not built like a snake.  They will be alot thicker topped from their head all the way to that hip. 
And if you talk to alot of people they all say if you had to help it means it is that much thicker and going to be a better show steer.
I can remember pulling some big thick calves and they were some high dollar steers.  And i have also seem some high dollar ones that were huge at birth that the cow could have on her own.

 

[red]

our scales are pretty accurate. We do allow 3 pounds for the tarp.
Even though they are both 101 I'll keep bulls as of now. Structure will play a big difference down the line.
We did steer Lee, he weighed in at 115. (still sorry about that elbee!)
I'm enjoying the discussion. Maybe next one will be age?

Red

 

[Steered]

my friend with the Star power calf taped him at 115 and scaled at 113

One calf isn't enough of a test to see if it is accurate.  That is like if I guessed at the weight and was within 2 pounds.  It doesn't mean that I am always that close.  The tapes were not designed to give an accurate weight, but to give an estimate of an average sized calf (either hoof circumference or heart gearth, whichever you use.)  My opinion If you are raising purebred stock that is going to be sold to someone for breeding stock then you better be reporting actual weights.  If you are raising crossed up calves to try for the great steer, do whatever you want (You probably aren't reporting any weights anyway in that case).  This is why so many people have so little faith in EPD's.  There are too many people not being accurate. 

 

[Dusty]

I think BW is just part of the calving ease equation.  How they are built and more importantly how momma is built play a bigger part.  I can promise you that a 110lb angus calf is gonna come out easier than a 90lb club calf.

Another side note, I agree with the earlier poster that a lot of commercial guys don't weigh their calves and just assume they weigh in the eighties.  There are a lot of 100 pounders born that don't even show up on the radar.

And another thing, ya know those guys that like to brag that their cows just calve out on the stalks or in the pasture or whatever and they don't have to babysit them.  I call BS on that.  They may just let them calve wherever, but they have dead ones they don't talk about at the coffee shop...

 

[red]

when I turned in a BW of 150 pounds years ago the AMAA questioned me saying that their system didn't go that high & also I was ruining bull's EPD's.

Red

 

[ELBEE]

Red, you forgot a box to check for: Who's way past looking at numbers?  ;D

CNDCowboy, you get a karma from me! 8-10% calf to cow is "spot" on. Also remember 50% at 205 days.

OakBar, one for you too! I've lost a lot of customers for being honest. No more numbers from me, they don't believe me anyway. 90% of "people who have cattle", not cattlemen, should NEVER use a bull, for any reason, that hasn't sired at least a hundred calves, that they've seen. Either you believe in my program, or drive on down the road. Most years I don't keep back even ONE bull. And if I do keep one, it's for potential in herd use.

Me look'in at someone else's numbers is a waste of my time!

 

[VJ]

Big cows can have big calves. I have a 1700 lb cow that has a 90-100 lb calf every year with no problem at all.Why give up that 20-30 lbs at birth if you have big cows. If I have calves above 8% of cows weight then I get nervous. Otherwise as long as my small cows are having small calves unassisted and my big cows are having big calves unassisted I'm happy.

 

[aj]

I spose in a world of 2000 # cows bwts. might not matter that much.