Totally off the wall question here...

[firesweepranch]

OK, so totally off the wall here, but does the color of the nose of a red calf indicate what the coat color will be? We have only had one red Simmental, and she was more of a peach color. We now have three red calves (all bulls, of course!) and two of them have an almost black nose, compared to the other calf and peach heifer who have more peach color noses.
Just wondering why the difference?  ???
Here is a pic of the dark nose calf

 

[Sassy2899]

No it should not have to do with the coat color at all.  If the calf is out of a black cow and sired by a black bull, but comes out red that means that both parents(cow Rr and bull Rr) have a recessive gene (r-recessive gene red) thus the calf comes out red.  The black nose indicates the calf (if out of black parents) is heterozygous red, meaning the calf is rr .  So if you have red parents the calves will have come out red with a red nose.  Black (R) is dominant over red (r), called homozygous (RR),  unless the black parents carry a recessive gene (r) then the calf could have a 25% chance of coming out red (rr), called heterozygous. Sorry all got a little side tracked when typing this information, didn't mean to lead you astray.

 

[leanbeef]

No it should not have to do with the coat color at all.  If the calf is out of a black cow and sired by a black bull, but comes out red that means that both parents have a recessive gene thus the calf comes out black.  The black nose indicates the calf (if out of black parents) is heterozygous red, meaning it is recessive for black.  So if you have red parents the calves will have come out red with a red nose.  Black is dominant over red, called homozygous,  unless the black parents carry a recessive gene, called heterozygous. 

Umm... Not exactly. Black is dominant over red. Red is recessive. So a red animal does not carry a black gene, regardless of what color the parents are. If the animal had a dominant black gene, it would have been black.

Homozygous ANYTHING means both the genes for that trait are the same, and all progeny will receivethe same gene for that trait from that parent. So a homozygous black animal can only contribute a black gene for color to any mating, and since black is dominant, no red offspring. That does NOT mean that animal won't produce spotted or diluted offspring if mated to animals that carry those traits.

In regards to your question about red calves' noses, I don't know. I might tend to believe that black-nosed calves stand a high probability of being non-diluted, but that does not mean that red-nosed calves are NOT non-diluted. You can't look at a red calf and tell whether or not they carry a gene for dilution, but any red calf out of two black parents IS non-diluted. We know this because the dilution gene is dominant, so a black animal that is a dilutor will be gray, not black.

 

[firesweepranch]

Umm... Not exactly. Black is dominant over red. Red is recessive. So a red animal does not carry a black gene, regardless of what color the parents are. If the animal had a dominant black gene, it would have been black.
Yep!
Homozygous ANYTHING means both the genes for that trait are the same, and all progeny will receive the same gene for that trait from that parent. So a homozygous black animal can only contribute a black gene for color to any mating, and since black is dominant, no red offspring. That does NOT mean that animal won't produce spotted or diluted offspring if mated to animals that carry those traits.
Which means the dam is heterozygous black (which we did not know), as is the sire (which we already knew)
In regards to your question about red calves' noses, I don't know. I might tend to believe that black-nosed calves stand a high probability of being non-diluted, but that does not mean that red-nosed calves are NOT non-diluted. You can't look at a red calf and tell whether or not they carry a gene for dilution, but any red calf out of two black parents IS non-diluted. We know this because the dilution gene is dominant, so a black animal that is a dilutor will be gray, not black.

OK, so let me clarify. I know coat color genetics (black = dominant, BB or Bb, red =  recessive, bb), and I agree with you lean beef. I was just wondering if the darker colored noses on the twin Rendition bull calves (out of two black parents that carry the red gene) would mean they were going to be a darker red (more cherry color - like Jewel). I only have the one red heifer (soon to be cow!), that is a peachy red (less desirable, in my opinion) and her nose is peach colored. The embryo calf we had by Built Right and L202 (both black also) has a red to light red colored nose, but he still has his baby hair and looks like a lighter shade of red. The twins is the first time I have ever seen a red calf with a very dark, almost black nose. Both are that way.  So it just got me thinking about the shades of red, and what determines or indicates what shade of red they will be. I never thought of the dilution gene playing into it! Make me think a little harder now!!!
I guess it is kind of like color in horses; babies that are born solid but turn gray will have gray eyelashes (obviously have to have a gray parent), and palomino foals can be born brown but if they have golden eyelashes they shed out palomino. Had many of each, and once we learned that little trick it was easier getting papers on foals instead of waiting for them to shed out and see what they were going to be!
That is why it was off the wall; I just love looking at the babies and trying to see what they will look like in the future.
Thanks for you help.

 

[DL]

No it should not have to do with the coat color at all.  If the calf is out of a black cow and sired by a black bull, but comes out red that means that both parents have a recessive gene thus the calf comes out black.  The black nose indicates the calf (if out of black parents) is heterozygous red, meaning it is recessive for black.  So if you have red parents the calves will have come out red with a red nose.  Black is dominant over red, called homozygous,  unless the black parents carry a recessive gene, called heterozygous. 

sassy - you appear confused and this is completely wrong - sorry - check out the genetics of coat color at http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/PaleColors.html

firesweep - interesting question - my understanding of the dilute gene or genes is that they refer to coat color and although not identified in Simmies (yet) they have been identified in other breeds -

I have noticed different coloration on my red calves as well and wondered about it - darker nose isn't always on calves from black parents either - another weird think I have noticed is that some calves have tongues that are black on top and pink on the bottom - first time you see a black tongue you think OMG the calf is dead - then look on the bottom and it is AOK

 

[leanbeef]

The dilution gene is absolutely present in a lot of the old Simmental bloodlines. While it's easy to tell if a black animal carries a gene for dilution because the hair coat will be some shade of gray, smoke or chocolate, it's not easy to tell in red cattle. There is no clear difference between shades of red like the difference between black and dark chocolate, and just because an animal isn't dark cherry red, that doesn't mean it isn't non-diluted. I've seen many a non-diluted red out of two black parents that comes out orange. And I've seen dark, dark red ones produce a smoke colored calf when bred to a black, which means the dark red obviously carries a dilution gene. Black calves may be born brown, but you can tell if they'll shed out black by looking around the eyes and at the "points" (knees and feet, tips of ears, tail switch). You can't do that with the reds, but as I said, I tend to think the dark reds with the black noses or red cattle with black looking hair around the muzzle, in their ears, on their legs or in the tail, are non-dilutor. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY HAVE A BLACK GENE...They don't!

In this case, you know the calves are non dilutor, and the darker the better just because people like dark red if given the choice, but I don't know what it means really. If it means anything...

 

[leanbeef]

Firesweep...what I don't think anybody has said is this...I think the calves' coat color will be similar to what it is now...maybe a shade darker or even a shade lighter, but I don't imagine they'll change a great deal in terms of "value" of the shade (speaking in art terms, "value" refers to darkness vs lightness). I've seen orange-reds with the black points as well as dark, cherry reds with red noses, so...

If you think about other red breeds--Red Angus, Polled Hereford, etc.--you see the same kinds of differences in shades of red WITHOUT any indication of a dilutor gene. And then it seems like some red breeds tend to be a little more uniform with less variance among cattle, like Limousin, Salers, and Red Polls, for instance. I recently saw a website for some Fleckvieh Simmental that advertised bulls either dilutor carrier or non carrier, so I guess there's a test now?...I haven't kept up with dilution much since we went all homozygous black, so... I'm just waiting for that spot test to come around!

 

[husker1]

I thought I had the dilutor deal figured out years ago, until it became apparent that a dilutor gene could be carried silently (not expressed).  Such as the the case mentioned by lean beef where a dark red parent bred black can have a grey calf. 

In addition, we had a curve ball to the whole homozygous black situation occur about 7 or 8 years ago.  ASA announced it in one of their weekly news letters, but most have probably forgotten by now.  This is a little off subject, but still very interesting.  Sold a Simmental bull to California sired by Preferred Beef that was tested Homozygous Black.  When calves started arriving the next spring, over 25% of them were red, which, of course, is impossible!  After first confirming parentage on 2 red calves, we then went back & tested the bull again.  He came back homo-black again.  wow.  Tested his donor dam, who was thought to be heterozygous black, as she had numerous red calves.  Surprisingly, her test came back homo-black.  Again, nearly impossible.  I don't know if any of you remember the old Simmental bull Red Charlie, but he was the sire of the donor.  He was dark cherry red with black pigment on the eyes, nose, tail, etc.  If I recall correctly, he was already deceased at the time.  With many experts analyzing this whole process, it was ultimately determined that a wild allele, or a mutation of some type, was causing the black gene to mutate to the red color.  Really, really stange; a one in a million situation.  The thought is that if we could've went back and checked Red Charlie, though he was red, that he would've tested with at least one black gene.  Also, it was our best guess that the red calves in california probably would've tested with a black gene.  Crazy crazy deal.

Just when you think you have it figured out, mother nature throws a curveball.

 

[leanbeef]

I do remember Red Charlie, and I remember him well. He was a good breeding bull! I actually had a chance to visit Stew & Delores Schwartz in Montana where Red Charlie was raised, and I saw a BUNCH of REALLY nice Red Charlie daughters on range pasture out there. Incidentally, to this day...the best breakfast I ever sat down to...Thanks again, Delores! But that's another subject...

I remember when there was an article about Red Charlie. We've also had a homozygous black bull that sired a VERY "red" calf, and we did confirm the tests and parentage. The caveat is that these cattle are NOT genetically red, and they also do not carry a gene for black. If an animal has one gene for the aforementioned wild type allele, the animal will express a brown or reddish color with black points (like a Jersey). A black animal with this allele will test as "Not a true black" but I think a lot of cattle with this wild color gene will express that differently, regardless of whether their other color gene is red or black.

Long, long ago in a land far away, the wild aurochs, which later developed into our domesticated cattle and eventually cattle breeds, were colored like this. The bulls were generally darker or blacker, with the females being more brownish or reddish with black faces, legs and necks. There are several breeds today that maintain this coloring...Jersey and Tarentaise, for two, as well as Chianina, Romagnola, and other breeds that carry the wild type markings on a white or "diluted" background. This is not the same dilution gene carried by Charolais and Simmental.

Since American Simmental have always had an open herd book, there are all kinds of genes from lots of different other breeds that still exist in the population, and the wild type is one of those. My guess would be that Red Charlie had a wild color gene...not a black gene...and that would explain the mixtures of dark or black coloring on red-hides cattle.

 

[PDJ]

The black nose deal is kind of wild.  As long as I can remember, we have had a few Shorthorn bloodlines that have thrown a black nose.  This is going back 40 years.  And Mark T may remember more exactly, but I seem to remember Lazy D having a white bull with a black nose (and a few black spots).

 

[Lucky_P]

Sometimes Ma Nature throws things in the mix to confuse us.
The 'wild color' gene is present in a number of cattle breeds, some already mentioned in this thread - and there are some Angus cattle that are known carriers of that gene.
I had a wild-color cow in my herd, who popped up 15 years or so after any introduction of new genetics - don't know if it came in through Simmental sires used in the past, but I suspect from one old crossbred black horned cow that looked like she had some Jersey in her ancestry somewhere that I got back in about '86.  Her granddaughter, a Connection out of a 6I6 daughter, looks like she may be wild-color, but we'll have to wait 'til she sheds her baby coat; might end up being black, but I'm not so sure.

Years ago, when I used to follow Holstein/Red&White genetics, there were some coat color mutations that popped up.
Telstar red, or red/black, which was widely disseminated by the Roybrook Telstar son, Hanover-Hill Triple Threat was well recognized, and fairly common in some herds back in the 70s-80s.
Then, back in the '90s(as best I can recall) there was a new 'Rosabel red' that showed up - red dominant to black - was termed BC (black-carrier) - and it seems to have re-emerged, possibly in another line of HO/RW cattle.
Have a look here: http://www.redandwhitecattle.com/genetics.html

Another point of confusion - chimeras do occur; seems like there was a prominent Angus sire within the last 10 years or so whose germ cells(sperm) didn't match up with his autosomal (body) genotype.  He may have been the result of fusion of two separate fertilized eggs, with the cells from one egg ultimately giving rise to his germ cell line, while the bulk of his autosomal cells were from the other egg.  So...it's conceivable that you could have a chimera who blood tests homo black, but produces sperm carrying the red gene.  Same thing could happen with a chimeric cow, if her ovaries originated from a different zygote(fertilized egg) than her autosomal cell lines. In either case, bull or cow, you could end up with calves that don't blood-type to sire or dam...confusion!!!

 

[renegadelivestock]

The black nose deal is kind of wild.  As long as I can remember, we have had a few Shorthorn bloodlines that have thrown a black nose.  This is going back 40 years.  And Mark T may remember more exactly, but I seem to remember Lazy D having a white bull with a black nose (and a few black spots).

It was always kind of thought in the shorthorn deal that black nosed cattle had a fair bit of chi in them, I remember seeing white shorties with black noses, and dark rims on their ears

 

[PDJ]

The black nose deal is kind of wild.  As long as I can remember, we have had a few Shorthorn bloodlines that have thrown a black nose.  This is going back 40 years.  And Mark T may remember more exactly, but I seem to remember Lazy D having a white bull with a black nose (and a few black spots).

It was always kind of thought in the shorthorn deal that black nosed cattle had a fair bit of chi in them, I remember seeing white shorties with black noses, and dark rims on their ears

Oh, I know a lot of the obnes with blacl noses had some chi in back of them.  The two lines we had with black noses were in our herd since before 1960, and were little frame four cows.  Long before the chi's started getting introduced.  I'm sure there had to be something back a ways, maybe even angus or galloway.

 

[Shady Lane]

Over the years I've seen numerous black nosed Shorthorns, some appendix cattle with Chi influence etc, Rodeo Drive decendants etc, some with full "Beef Shorthorn, Scotch pedigrees, some with full Irish pedigrees.

It definitely happens, it's a fairly common trait to find.

One black nosed sire that shows up fairly common in Shorthorn Pedigrees would be SR Red Riders Drive.

 

[Hilltop]

One black nosed sire that shows up fairly common in Shorthorn Pedigrees would be SR Red Riders Drive.

Yup! We had a Proud Augustus daughter with her Irish sired first calf this year and her heifer had a quite black nose but the black has almost disappeared. Nice dark hair on the ears yet though! A white shorty with no dark hair on the ears and poll from our experience will be a DUD!
If I remember right I think old Clark left some black on the snouts??

 

[RyanChandler]

[
So a red animal does not carry a black gene, regardless of what color the parents are.

Then explain how a feller in Oklahoma linebreeding some Beckton stock has a Recorded black colored Red Angus out of Registered Red Angus parents?

 

[aj]

I would explain it.....that there is a mix up on the pedigree and a black bull got in on the deal. Parentally verify stuff. You can't pull horseshit anymore.

 

[leanbeef]

Look...this is very basic, first-day-of-class Mendelian genetics. Any breeder who has a black calf born from two red parents should immediately see red flags in regards to what the real sire is. If DNA tests confirm parentage, or don't rule out the animals believed to be the sire and dam as possible parents, I would want to see the calf and would probably want a color test. Cattle that carry the wild color allele can be very dark, especially bulls, and they get darker as they get older. If all that is done and nothing is learned and it still seems two red parents produced a black calf, then there are two possibilities: 1. Either the parentage test is inactivate, and i doubt any company claims their test to be 100% accurate...those things are based on probability, or 2. Somebody has a genetic anomaly. Both the Polled Hereford and Red Angus breeds were built from cattle carrying a genetic mutation. I've never heard of a black mutant out of two reds, but that doesn't mean it doesn't or CAN'T happen. It just means it isn't very likely.