Triplets

[firesweepranch]

I know that when a cow has twins- bull and heifer, the heifer is a free martin.

Not always...  actually more like a 92% of not being good.  Type in Chymera in google.. will help explain this better.

When a cow has triplets, 2 bulls and a heifer or 2 heifers and a bull, does this mean they are freemartins too?

Maybe, what causes the infertility-- has nothing really to do with the actual number of births- but has to do with egg splitting in half to form twins-- since most cattle won't drop 2 eggs.  Somewhere along the lines- the heifer calf gets a shot of male DNA forcing her to be sterile.  IF the triplets are from one egg- which I do not believe to be possible *unless the cow had quads and absorbed one* one should be different DNA-- or as my guess most of the time would be-- she dropped 3 eggs. 
Now in sheep and goats, where dropping on more than one eggs is common- rarely  are "free martins" ever seen.

Might have to politely disagree with you Jody. I was always taught that a freemartin was caused from the testosterone crossing the placental barrier while the gonads (sex organs) were forming early on, thus suppressing the growth of the female reproductive parts.  If twins are the result of eggs splitting, they would be IDENTICAL, so same sex and no worry of freemartin. So, with triplets of different sex, I think you run into the same issues; if the testosterone crossed the placenta then the heifer will be sterile.
??? Am I correct??? I will have to look later, right now I am finishing up giving a quiz and packing up to head home to do chores.

 

[OH Breeder]

when i pulled the first one i felt the second one and when i pulled the second felt the third.

That is great they made it and are healthy. You may have to supplement them a bit with some milk. Or if you have another cow graph to would also help. Anxious to see pics.

I had triplets from single embryo transfer two years ago. The guy that delivered them for me said he saw the first and was like okay just small and still born too bad. Then right after it the feet were there for the second one and she delivered it. As he walked away the third one was on its way. The recip cow milked good and fed them just fine. They did supplement the calves because she ended up feeding two other calves that took a liking to her.

 

[kfacres]

a sterile female born co-twin with a male. Occurs most commonly in cattle, very rarely in sheep, and apparently not at all in the other species. Male hormones produced by the male calf share the common circulation and inhibit the normal development of genitalia of the female. The female is also an erythrocytic chimera and can be diagnosed as a freemartin by this means. It can also be diagnosed by cytogenetic techniques. It produces white cells with XY as well as cells with XX chromosomes. Structural changes of nonpatent vagina, small vulva, cordlike uterus and hypoplastic ovaries are diagnostic but inconsistent. Some freemartins are quite normal clinically but all are sterile.
Freemartin placenta. By permission from Buergelt CD, Color Atlas of Reproductive Pathology of Domestic Animal, Mosby, 1996

I would say you are correct-- but during the thought of egg splitting and shared DNA- I did not get spit out right...

 

[Billenstein Farms]

we are taking a bottle down morning and night and seeing if there are any takers but so far they all seem full

 

[AndersenClubCalves]

Would love to see some pictures. whos their sire?

 

[Earthmover]

Congrats Adam, better the cow than the wife. Hows the rest of the herd coming along? Any nice ones yet?

 

[leanbeef]

I know that when a cow has twins- bull and heifer, the heifer is a free martin.

Not always...  actually more like a 92% of not being good.  Type in Chymera in google.. will help explain this better.

When a cow has triplets, 2 bulls and a heifer or 2 heifers and a bull, does this mean they are freemartins too?

Maybe, what causes the infertility-- has nothing really to do with the actual number of births- but has to do with egg splitting in half to form twins-- since most cattle won't drop 2 eggs.  Somewhere along the lines- the heifer calf gets a shot of male DNA forcing her to be sterile.  IF the triplets are from one egg- which I do not believe to be possible *unless the cow had quads and absorbed one* one should be different DNA-- or as my guess most of the time would be-- she dropped 3 eggs. 
Now in sheep and goats, where dropping on more than one eggs is common- rarely  are "free martins" ever seen.

Actually, BS...there are two different types of twins...identical and fraternal. Identical twins are from a split embryo and are always the same sex. Fraternal twins are from two separate eggs and can be the same sex or different sexes. We've had several sets of twins, and they're often a bull and a heifer. We've kept a couple of them to see if they would ever cycle/breed, and we've never had one that would. Until now...

Free martin heifers often show visible signs on the outside they aren't exactly right...a mis-shaped vulva...two teats instead of four...and the reproductive tract is palpably incomplete. There is also a blood test that can distinguish a free martin from a normal female. I've always heard free martins occurred in approximately 95% of heifers born twin to a bulls, and we now have our first non-free martin case!...a heifer from a set of twins that came more than a month early. My theory (and this is just MY theory...I've asked a couple of people who I thought would know and they didn't, and I just haven't researched it) is that since the calves were delivered so early, the hormonal interference hadn't taken place yet, and the heifer calf finished her development outside the mother and outside the placenta where hormonal interference would normally cause her to become a free martin. I'm pretty excited about her...I've always really liked her, and she was a survivor from the day she was born. She cycled and bred...we're waiting to confirm the pregnancy now.

I would think that it wouldn't matter how many calves were born...any male/female birth would cause the same scenario and the high probability that the females, whether one or two, will be free martins.

 

[ROMAX]

I had a cow have triplets this past year,she was an angus cow bred to a maine bull,saw her bred in sept and vet confirmed,so her due date was july 6.Was going to cull her as being late bred,but when i seen the price of cows, thought it was going to cost too much to replace her.Kept her hoping she would deliver a heifer calf early.Fast forward to july,this cow was huge and was very slow moving,so put her in a pen in the barn to keep an eye on her.She calved july 12 in the afternoon dad found her with the first calf on the ground and she was licking him off,she turned around and the feet of the second calf were out ,so he helped pull him out,an hour later my wife dropped our son off at the farm and dad showed her the set of twins,but by now there was 3 up and running around the pen.2 bulls 1 heifer approx 50 lbs each

 

[NBCattleCo.]

We once got quadruplets out of a sim x hereford cow. 3 heifers and a bull and all four survived.

 

[Charo]

We have a purebred charolais that gave us triplets the last 2 years. This year she lost the 3 males 3 weeks in advance. Last year we saved 2 females and the third female arrived dead. Three years ago we put an embryo in her so she have 3 calves alive in 3 calving season.

 

[Hilltop]

We once got quadruplets out of a sim x hereford cow. 3 heifers and a bull and all four survived.

That would of been a handfull for old mooma cow! You must have pics of that crew to post? If we had triplets or Quads we would have 100 pics.
I am just guessing but prob have a better chance at winning a lottery than a cow having quads?

 

[redsimmsnangus]

I know that when a cow has twins- bull and heifer, the heifer is a free martin.

Not always...  actually more like a 92% of not being good.  Type in Chymera in google.. will help explain this better.

When a cow has triplets, 2 bulls and a heifer or 2 heifers and a bull, does this mean they are freemartins too?

Maybe, what causes the infertility-- has nothing really to do with the actual number of births- but has to do with egg splitting in half to form twins-- since most cattle won't drop 2 eggs.  Somewhere along the lines- the heifer calf gets a shot of male DNA forcing her to be sterile.  IF the triplets are from one egg- which I do not believe to be possible *unless the cow had quads and absorbed one* one should be different DNA-- or as my guess most of the time would be-- she dropped 3 eggs. 
Now in sheep and goats, where dropping on more than one eggs is common- rarely  are "free martins" ever seen.

Might have to politely disagree with you Jody. I was always taught that a freemartin was caused from the testosterone crossing the placental barrier while the gonads (sex organs) were forming early on, thus suppressing the growth of the female reproductive parts.  If twins are the result of eggs splitting, they would be IDENTICAL, so same sex and no worry of freemartin. So, with triplets of different sex, I think you run into the same issues; if the testosterone crossed the placenta then the heifer will be sterile.
??? Am I correct??? I will have to look later, right now I am finishing up giving a quiz and packing up to head home to do chores.

The interference happens around day 21 of gestation.  All embryos start out with the same plumbing, and the hormones the embryo is exposed to very early determines what develops.  Your calf was lucky enough not to have a fused placenta with its win, keeping the blood of both embryos separate and avoiding the freemartin issue.

 

[kfacres]

so, why does this happen so often with the cattle.. and not with the other species:  sheep, goats, or humans?

 

[cattleman70]

My Grandpa had triplets out of a commercial Angus cow. All three where heifers and all survived.

 

[Telos]

Congrats on the Trplets. I'm listenig to Kathy's beautiful "giggle" as I type this. Hope all is well.

 

[knabe]

http://www.ansci.wisc.edu/research/twin/index.html

Maine anjounhave a twinning rate of 5-6%
Other breeds have similar rates.

My theory about twinning and triplets is that it's correlated with the number of teats.

Humans have a triplet rate of one in 500,000 while cattle are one in 100,000.

Cattle have twice the number of functional teats and 5x the triplets.

There must be a survey somewhere.  Seems too obvious to not have been studied.

On the other hand, there may be a beneficial reason for multiple teats to minimize mastitis or to keep the teats off the ground and structure in general.  Also why I like teats far apart with good forward quarter structure.

On the other hand, predators may have had some selection pressure against twins or even herders as they needed milk and twins would have been competition.

We are unaware of the selection pressure for the last 100,000 years which may drive some of these production genes.  Since its so easy to toggle some of them, it may look like a big change but in reality, the expression is low.  Some gene expression is heat sensitive.  Gene expression is sensitive to all sorts of things.  We really don't understand very much at this point.  It's really only intellectually honest to present things this way and to constantly definitively say otherwise is flat dishonest.

 

[leanbeef]

I know that when a cow has twins- bull and heifer, the heifer is a free martin.

Not always...  actually more like a 92% of not being good.  Type in Chymera in google.. will help explain this better.

When a cow has triplets, 2 bulls and a heifer or 2 heifers and a bull, does this mean they are freemartins too?

Maybe, what causes the infertility-- has nothing really to do with the actual number of births- but has to do with egg splitting in half to form twins-- since most cattle won't drop 2 eggs.  Somewhere along the lines- the heifer calf gets a shot of male DNA forcing her to be sterile.  IF the triplets are from one egg- which I do not believe to be possible *unless the cow had quads and absorbed one* one should be different DNA-- or as my guess most of the time would be-- she dropped 3 eggs. 
Now in sheep and goats, where dropping on more than one eggs is common- rarely  are "free martins" ever seen.

Might have to politely disagree with you Jody. I was always taught that a freemartin was caused from the testosterone crossing the placental barrier while the gonads (sex organs) were forming early on, thus suppressing the growth of the female reproductive parts.  If twins are the result of eggs splitting, they would be IDENTICAL, so same sex and no worry of freemartin. So, with triplets of different sex, I think you run into the same issues; if the testosterone crossed the placenta then the heifer will be sterile.
??? Am I correct??? I will have to look later, right now I am finishing up giving a quiz and packing up to head home to do chores.

The interference happens around day 21 of gestation.  All embryos start out with the same plumbing, and the hormones the embryo is exposed to very early determines what develops.  Your calf was lucky enough not to have a fused placenta with its win, keeping the blood of both embryos separate and avoiding the freemartin issue.

Hmmm...Day 21, huh? Ok...well, that blows MY theory! I guess we WERE lucky. I'm still waiting on the preg check before I get overly excited about it, though...

 

[firesweepranch]

I know that when a cow has twins- bull and heifer, the heifer is a free martin.

Not always...  actually more like a 92% of not being good.  Type in Chymera in google.. will help explain this better.

When a cow has triplets, 2 bulls and a heifer or 2 heifers and a bull, does this mean they are freemartins too?

Maybe, what causes the infertility-- has nothing really to do with the actual number of births- but has to do with egg splitting in half to form twins-- since most cattle won't drop 2 eggs.  Somewhere along the lines- the heifer calf gets a shot of male DNA forcing her to be sterile.  IF the triplets are from one egg- which I do not believe to be possible *unless the cow had quads and absorbed one* one should be different DNA-- or as my guess most of the time would be-- she dropped 3 eggs. 
Now in sheep and goats, where dropping on more than one eggs is common- rarely  are "free martins" ever seen.

Might have to politely disagree with you Jody. I was always taught that a freemartin was caused from the testosterone crossing the placental barrier while the gonads (sex organs) were forming early on, thus suppressing the growth of the female reproductive parts.  If twins are the result of eggs splitting, they would be IDENTICAL, so same sex and no worry of freemartin. So, with triplets of different sex, I think you run into the same issues; if the testosterone crossed the placenta then the heifer will be sterile.
??? Am I correct??? I will have to look later, right now I am finishing up giving a quiz and packing up to head home to do chores.

The interference happens around day 21 of gestation.  All embryos start out with the same plumbing, and the hormones the embryo is exposed to very early determines what develops.  Your calf was lucky enough not to have a fused placenta with its win, keeping the blood of both embryos separate and avoiding the freemartin issue.

Hmmm...Day 21, huh? Ok...well, that blows MY theory! I guess we WERE lucky. I'm still waiting on the preg check before I get overly excited about it, though...

The Wallace's (big known breeders of Angus cattle, daughter Paige is American Angus Queen and now spokesperson the the show) showed a nice red heifer last year, Amigo x angus, she won our National Percentage show, is twin to a bull and fertile. IIRC, she is due to calf in March or April. So it does happen to some, but not us this year  :-\ We have a freemartin we need to take to the sale barn. You could tell soon after birth since her vulva was always small and tight, and her clitoris stuck outside of the vulva. For my daughter's sake (out of her good cow) we had her checked by the vet, she has nothing beyond a very small and short vagina. Oh well. At least we have an extra to sell!

 

[kfacres]

http://www.ansci.wisc.edu/research/twin/index.html

Maine anjounhave a twinning rate of 5-6%
Other breeds have similar rates.

My theory about twinning and triplets is that it's correlated with the number of teats.

Humans have a triplet rate of one in 500,000 while cattle are one in 100,000.

Cattle have twice the number of functional teats and 5x the triplets.

There must be a survey somewhere.  Seems too obvious to not have been studied.

On the other hand, there may be a beneficial reason for multiple teats to minimize mastitis or to keep the teats off the ground and structure in general.  Also why I like teats far apart with good forward quarter structure.

On the other hand, predators may have had some selection pressure against twins or even herders as they needed milk and twins would have been competition.

I tend to disagree..  sheep and goats- have 2 teats-- rarely more- I have seen one case of 4 teats on a ewe-- and about twice that many on a nanny...  I bet the triplet rate for them is nearly 1 in 3 across breeds and the USA. 

 

[Limiman12]

I know that when a cow has twins- bull and heifer, the heifer is a free martin.

Not always...  actually more like a 92% of not being good.  Type in Chymera in google.. will help explain this better.

When a cow has triplets, 2 bulls and a heifer or 2 heifers and a bull, does this mean they are freemartins too?

Maybe, what causes the infertility-- has nothing really to do with the actual number of births- but has to do with egg splitting in half to form twins-- since most cattle won't drop 2 eggs.  Somewhere along the lines- the heifer calf gets a shot of male DNA forcing her to be sterile.  IF the triplets are from one egg- which I do not believe to be possible *unless the cow had quads and absorbed one* one should be different DNA-- or as my guess most of the time would be-- she dropped 3 eggs. 
Now in sheep and goats, where dropping on more than one eggs is common- rarely  are "free martins" ever seen.

Would still be possible.  After the split of the first egg, if one of the resulting eggs split but not both it would be possible, and more likely then both splitting a second time.  If there was more then one placenta would be a way to tell if the egg split or if they were multiple eggs