twins with embryo's

[spencer f.]

Just lost a set of twins from an embryo package that we had bought.  Problem is one was black and one was red - They were about 8 months along.
They were due on march 12
Here's the question should we have them tested for parentage ?  If an embryo split wouldn't they be identical ?  ( even color ) 
No bull with cows until 2 weeks after transfer. We had them ultrasounded at that time only 1 of the 3 stayed.  So these twins would
be our guaranteed of 1 pregnancy with 3 embryo's. both were heifers.
Any one have any thoughts ?

 

[Sassy2899]

well i'm gonna take a shot here and say they are twins.  This follows the lines of genetics.  If you have a donor cow that has a black gene(B) and a recessive red gene(b) and the bull has a black gene and a recessive red gene you will have 25% BB, 50% Bb and 25%bb.  So you could have had a one black and one red.  It all depends on what percentage each calf gets and what genes each calf gets.  Each calf is its own individual.  The recipe can have some affect on phenotype(looks) but most of it is the genetic make up from the donor and sire.  Hope this helps you.  Sorry you lost the twins.

 

[Rhj]

Could have accidentally got 2 embryos in the straw?

 

[justintime]

I have only had 1 experience with an embryo splitting and it resulted indentical twin heifers. They were red with white markings and the white spots on them were exactly the same. I always assumed that when an embryos split, the result was identical twins. In humans identical twins are the result from this, and they are usually the same sex as well. But I am far from an expert on this.

The year I had my identical twins from one embryo, I probably used up most of the luck I was given. I implanted 18 embryos, had 17 pregnancies and weaned 18 heifer calves.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

At my view point not are problems with embryos with different colors born from same flush and same donors.
If the embryos in question are from Aberdeen Angus breed, the breed show both colors.
In Shorthorn breed case a same fush can produce roans, white or reds, as breed show all genopypes for these colors.
Don't forget that embryos are only a lot of pregnancies that you is collecting at a same time.
I have a fullblood black cow that was mated with a black bull, last year she gave me a red calf, this year, the same cow was mated again with same bull, and produce a black calf....so no worry.

 

[SSIMMENTALS]

Color can vary with flush mates(full sibs), but providing your twins were the result of one embryo implanted and then split, they would be identicaltwins and should be the same color. Now, as stated I guess something could have happened with 2 embryos accidentally being put in. But if one mbryo went in and split, to my knowledge, those heifers should not be different colors.

 

[justintime]

At my view point not are problems with embryos with different colors born from same flush and same donors.
If the embryos in question are from Aberdeen Angus breed, the breed show both colors.
In Shorthorn breed case a same fush can produce roans, white or reds, as breed show all genopypes for these colors.
Don't forget that embryos are only a lot of pregnancies that you is collecting at a same time.
I have a fullblood black cow that was mated with a black bull, last year she gave me a red calf, this year, the same cow was mated again with same bull, and produce a black calf....so no worry.

But an embryo that splits at a very early age to produce 2 calves should produce 2 identical offspring, and I would think they would both be of the same sex... shouldn't it? The fertilized embryo has already determined the genetics it will be developing to make a new life. The sex is determined at conception as well. I understand that the same cow and bull mating can result in different colors of calves. In Shorthorns, it is very common to have anything from solid reds, roans ... to whites from the same mating. In the situation referred to in the first part of the thread, an embryo is suspected to have split and resulted in two calves of different colors. I am not sure this can happen???   I am wondering if it was possible that this cow dumped the fetus from the implanted embryo as well as a fetus from a pregnacy she had started with her own embryo as well. This situation just seems a bit strange to me.

In humans, I don't think I have ever seen identical twins that were different sexes. I have seen lots of identical twins that were both girls or both boys. That occurs when an fertilized embryo splits. bI would expect the same to happen in all creatures.

 

[leanbeef]

To answer your question, yes...identical twins would be the same color. This is not a case where the embryo split. While they were both heifers--identical twins are always the same sex--identical twin calves would also have been the same color...either both black or both red.

Your twins are then "fraternal" and the result of two separate eggs. There is more than one possibility of how this could have happened, and I'm not sure of the likelihood of each, but here are a few possibilities...

I agree with one poster above...there is a possibility that there were two embryos in the straw. Hopefully, a competent vet or embryologist would have caught that either when they were frozen & packaged or at thawing for implantation, but I dunno. We don't do a lot of flushing, and I'm not sure how often this happens or how easy it might be for somebody to miss an extra embryo in there...I would say it's possible, regardless of how good somebody is or how much experience they have. And I would guess the possibility of something like that increases with a lack of experience on the part of the person who recovered the embryos.

Another possibility is that your recip cow was bred by natural service BEFORE she was implanted, meaning the twins could have been hers. Are you absolutely sure there was no contact with a bull BEFORE she was exposed two weeks after the ET?...which I'm assuming was 3 weeks after her heat. If a bull got to her that day, she would have been due the same day as the embryo, and this scenario seems a little more likely to me than the likelihood of having two embryos in one straw, but that's just based on my experience and the reality that things like that do happen, regardless of the best of intentions.

A third scenario, and I'm not real sure how possible it would be, but you might ask a good embryologist...would it have been possible she was exposed and got bred AND conceived with the embryo that was implanted? If you know enuf about the genetics of either the recip or the ET mating to know that either a black or red calf shouldn't have been possible, this would seem like a possibility to me. The part I'm not sure about is a cow that has conceived maintaining a pregnancy--even for 8 months--if her uterus was entered into 7 days later to deliver a second embryo...I don't know that.

I would say if you want the seller to make good on the guarantee, you might go forward with the genetic test. If you can prove that these calves ARE NOT a product of the embryo mating, then they should compensate you according to the guarantee. If either one of them IS an ET calf, I think the contract was probably satisfied and it's your loss. Nobody guarantees a live calf...it's usually a 60 or 90 day pregnancy. In the case that BOTH calves are embryo calves, I personally would expect a breeder who provided that embryo to want to do something. If that's what happened, it shouldn't have happened, and the responsibility is on the embryologist.

Hope that helps. Sorry about the babies. Good luck!

 

[firesweepranch]

There is no way those twins are identical, since that takes one egg and sperm (genes already established) and splits it into two eggs. So, the calves would be identical. So, what did happen? Like Lean Beef said, there were either two eggs in the straw or a bull got to the cow while she was standing AND the egg was implanted 7 days later. Either way, you need to DNA the twins to establish parentage. A DNA test is cheap ($45 each for us through ASA) to get your money back or more eggs. If just one of the two DNA back to the donor, that is your fault because the cow got bred some other way. If both DNA back to the donor, it is the breeder's fault (or the embryologist) and they should stand behind the eggs and replace.
Please keep us posted as to the outcome, very curious to know what happened.

 

[spencer f.]

thankyou for everyone's answers -  A few more details - Our embryologist - said that when he ultrasounds them he really is only looking for one pregnancy
so he doesn't necessary go looking for a second pregnancy with embryo's -  He also gave us the 2 eggs in one straw theory - He said that vets are human
and so mistakes can happen.  We are going to send in samples -  The embryo's were purebred Maines - Our herd bull is on file already so if either
come back to him that would explain some. 
This is why steerplanet is so great - Information is out there - people are willing to share - thoughts - ideas - etc
- So thanks again - Will respond when more details are found.

 

[Cowboy]

To further confirm some of the scenarios already mentioned, I agree to there being only 2 possible ways this could happen.

First, an embryo that splits after implantation and produces 2 pregnancies will ALWAYS be identical -- no other combination possible, the genetics are already in place before they split. Both will be same sex and color.

A recip can easily get bred, even by a 5 month old bull calf, be pregnant for seven or 8 days and recieve a viable embryo, and carry both of them. The embryo at 7-8 days are still inside thier shell (ZONA) and would look like any other tiny piece of debris once they hatch out of that. Very small is an understatement.

2 embryos accidently placed in one straw does happen if you are not extremely carefull and are working with a fairly good number of eggs in the dish. The chances of full siblings being of differnt colors - especially in the Simmi and Maine deals -- are high. You could say you are also lucky to have gotten both hfrs if that were the case, 2 embryos would have lots of chances to be different sexes.

There ya have it -- there are the only possibilities in this case. At least now you have something to go by when making the determinations.

Terry

 

[Pleasant Grove Farms]

we had twin shorthorn embryo calves born to a black Simmental cow;
only way, only that could have happened was the two eggs in one straw....
they were a heifer and a bull;
that's all it could have been!