Two embryos per recipient cow?

[LLBUX]

Has anybody implanted two embryos in recips to increase the odds or numbers of pregnancy?

Some good and bad thoughts-
Calves should be smaller and easier at birth. 
Malpresentations of course could crop up.
Additional chance of rejection or nursing assistance.
I am finding that clubby steer calves don't need to be especially growthy to be valuable, so a twin would not be penalized.
Fewer recips to schedule and feed if some would twin.
Might be tougher to get cow bred back.

 

[qbcattle]

I would think that your number of calves to number of embryos put in ratio would stay the about the same but your quality of calves would suffer and your conception rates the following year would hurt on the twins... Sure wouldn't want heifer/bull twins although I don't know if in this instance the heifer would be a free Martin? I would think so?

Not saying the thought has never crossed my mind to do this but I can't seam to make it work when I start thinking about the results. .. Just my two cents

 

[Quick fire]

Personally, I think it's a waste of money. Plus, twin heifers are then useless. Also, twins rarely grow as well. But the biggest reason for me is because nobody enjoys calving twins.

 

[RyanChandler]

Only if you were putting them in Holsteins.  The free Martin scenario would still hold true.

 

[Gargan]

So if two separate embryos took and rendered twins ( a hfr and a bull calf) , both would be sterile ? I guess I always thought the sterile calves cane about from one single embryo splitting. I'm just curious and looking to get an answer from someone that knows

 

[Diamond]

Free martens result in the transfer of testosterone between the cell walls during development if I remember correctly. It transfers from the bull to the heifer. So yes even embryos and not just double released eggs or embryos splitting will cause free-martins. Aka the cons outway the pros of dual embryos IMO in that regards alone.

 

[RyanChandler]

Free martens result in the transfer of testosterone between the cell walls during development if I remember correctly. It transfers from the bull to the heifer. So yes even embryos and not just double released eggs or embryos splitting will cause free-martins. Aka the cons outway the pros of dual embryos IMO in that regards alone.

Yup. But you could always use sexed.

 

[RyanChandler]

So if two separate embryos took and rendered twins ( a hfr and a bull calf) , both would be sterile ? I guess I always thought the sterile calves cane about from one single embryo splitting. I'm just curious and looking to get an answer from someone that knows

Only the heifer will generally be sterile. And the heifer being sterile isn't a certainty.

 

[Gargan]

So if two separate embryos took and rendered twins ( a hfr and a bull calf) , both would be sterile ? I guess I always thought the sterile calves cane about from one single embryo splitting. I'm just curious and looking to get an answer from someone that knows

Only the heifer will generally be sterile. And the heifer being sterile isn't a certainty.

I've heard about 90% will be sterile

 

[firesweepranch]

I am really surprised no one mentioned the abortion factor. How many twin pregnancies terminate too early for a viable calf? To me, there are just too many risks involved to take the chance.

 

[RyanChandler]

Personally, I think it's a waste of money. Plus, twin heifers are then useless. Also, twins rarely grow as well. But the biggest reason for me is because nobody enjoys calving twins.

Twin heifers are perfectly fine.

 

[justintime]

I have heard that a female that is twin with a bull, is infertile only if they are in the same placenta. If each calf comes from a different placenta in the dam's uterus, there is a much better chance of both being fine. In the past 5 years, I have had two female twins with bull twins, that have bred and both are still in our herd.  In both cases, the dam passed one placenta and then had the second calf a few hours later, and then passed a second placenta. One of these female twins has one of our very best bull calves this year. I had another that was fertile probably about 15 years ago.

I am not sure if this is just an " old wives" tale or if there is some truth in it, but I have heard this comment a few times over the years.

In regards to implanting two embryos in each recip, I agree with all of the comments above. I would far rather have one good calf from each cow. I have seen far too many set of twins that have been stillborn, for no apparent reason, or one live and one dead twin at birth. It is extremely hard on the dam to carry twins unless you are willing to give them additional supplemental nutrition. Cows that have twins usually have a higher risk of not rebreeding as soon after calving. There is a higher percentage of them that come in open after the breeding season. Personally, I think there are far too many negative  factors  to make it a good option... at least in my operation.

I was appointed to a committee that was responsible for funding research projects for a few years. I remember one submission that was a multi- year project that wanted to research the possibility of developing a herd of females that had a much higher chance to have twins. I was glad that most of the others on the committee, felt that there were many more important areas of research that needed funding than this, and we rejected the application.

 

[Doc]

I was appointed to a committee that was responsible for funding research projects for a few years. I remember one submission that was a multi- year project that wanted to research the possibility of developing a herd of females that had a much higher chance to have twins. I was glad that most of the others on the committee, felt that there were many more important areas of research that needed funding than this, and we rejected the application.

Didn't they do that at MARC and they were called twinners?

 

[firesweepranch]

Just In Time, if they are different sex calved they HAVE to have two placentas, since they are two eggs. Identical twins share the same sac, since one egg splits. You have been extremely lucky to have a fertile female born to a twin bull. In early embryonic development, the testosterone that the bull produces to grow gonads transfers over the placental membranes into the heifer, and causes her reproductive tract to stop forming (testosterone trumps estrogen). There is a variable amount of the female tract that can form, depending on when the testosterone kicks in, and some freemartin heifers do not even have a cervix yet others will have up to a uterus but no ovaries. To have a fully functional tract is nothing more than luck, and the hormones of the bull kicking in AFTER the female tract is formed, if I remember correctly.
In our case a few years ago, we had a bull calf born right before church. He was big, over 80 pounds if I remember correctly. All was good, we went to church, and came home to find a second calf in the pen. We were gone for several hours, so I am not sure how long after the cow calved, but I know the calf stood before we left so it was about an hour. Anyway, the second calf was a heifer, and ended up a freemartin. Two sacks, of course.

 

[leanbeef]

We've had several sets of twins over the years, and the first we ever knew to NOT be a freemartin was born about three years ago. She just weaned her first calf, and she's a nice little cow. The probability that a heifer born twin to a bull will be a freemartin and therefore sterile is closer to 95% so about 1 in 20 is estimated to be ok.

Twins are great when all goes well. We've had cows wean twice as much calf as the rest of cows in the herd and do so very efficiently. And yes...the risk factors involved are greater starting with getting the calves on the ground both alive and healthy. I would certainly plan on a different management program for these females if you do decide to experiment. Have the cows in good shape at calving and keep them in decent flesh. Avoid using cows that milk themselves down and drastically lose body condition in order to put it all into the calf. Yes, they give more milk than some, but there's a trade off in getting that cow bred back the next year.

My preference would be one embryo per recip the way Mother Nature would do it.

 

[SWMO]

According to my education  .  When an embryo splits you have Identical TWINS.  IE they are both the same sex, color, etc etc etc.  When you get calves that one is a heifer and one is a bull you have fraternal twins.  Two eggs were released and fertilized and you have two embryonic sacs.  Same with fraternal twins that are both heifers or bulls. Or in humans Boys and Girls.

I had twins myself and was always amazed at the people that would say Oh you have twins how neat are they a boy and a girl.  I would reply yes and then they would ask if they were IDENTICAL.  Really.

 

[rmbcows]

I definately vote 1 embryo/recip.  We raised Charolais for many years, and they have lots of twins, our record was 9 sets one calving season.  Most were born alive, but the extra work of making sure both were claimed and got enough to eat was a lot of extra work.  More often than not, we'd pull one and either raise it on a bottle, graft it onto a cow that had lost a calf, or sold it as a bottle calf.  But all that aside, here's another scenario we had once....
we bought a purebred Charolais heifer that was an ET out of a sale.  Her recip mother had gotten with a bull when she came in heat.  When they put embryo's in, they told the owners the ET calf would take over IF she'd been bred by the bull, so they put in the embryo.  Sure enough, both calves took, so she was born twin to a calf that she wasn't related to.  The other calf was a heifer, but our Charolais heifer never did bloodtype correctly because of this.  They did issue papers for her finally, but it took lots of explaining and several blood and tissue samples to get it done. 

 

[Peter Elsden]

I have some facts regarding placing two embryos in one recipient. The first investigation was an experiment and the result was 51% twins born alive,the second and third twinning attempts were for commercial reasons and resulted in 52 and 51% twins born alive.There were 50,62 and 51 cows respectively in each group. The following facts were learned. Select the best cows to receive the embryos,at approximately 45 to 50 days palpate or ultrasound to detect those cows carrying twins and ensure the best feed available,collect colostrum to give the calves soon after birth since the mothers will not have a sufficient amount,at calving time place them in a small pasture as the mother frequently forgets she has two calves,10% of the cows required assistance at calving time fortunately it is easy to pull the calves as usually they are smaller,again place the cows and calves on the best feed.At weaning time the twins had grown to the usual weaning weight as their untouched peers. In the following season the previously twinned cows bred at the same rate as the rest of the herd, but only due to the steps we took anticipating the extra stress we placed on those cows. All of the heifers in a mixed sex exposure were infertile. Planned twinning involves a significant amount of time at the various stages and now I am a beef producer I would not attempt planned twinning,and agree with most of the previous comments.