tyson on heifers

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renegadelivestock

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forgive my ignorance about maine genetics, but i am a shorty man! however, i recently came across a sunseeker heifer that i just couldn't live without, stout, feminine and super cool, she is papered maintainer, and i need to start thinking about breeding her, is tyson safe for firt timers? any ohter sugestions? please bear in mind that i am in canada, and not all of the lautner/trausch/black bulls are available here! also, i am looking to keep in with maine or maintainer papers
 

bryan6807

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The calves I have seen were born in the 85-90 pound range and they were out of angus cows so I would not use him on a heifer, maybe look into getting some I-80 or just breed her to a red or black angus bull to play it safe.
 
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Idk what's going on with those big calves he has seen but I have never seen a large calf out of Tyson. I feel he makes them small enough and very marketable.
 

texas111

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tyson is heifer safe most of the time, but he will occasionally throw a large calf.  I have seen both.  Its the ali in him that makes him throw larger calves.  Personally i wouldnt chance it if you have all your cards in this heifer.  If not go for it.  More than likely you will be alright.
 

justme

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Consider Major's Money Man....he is heifer safe, he's a PB, and has stood the test of time.  I think just from bloodlines it might work, granted, I haven't seen her.  If she is pretty straight on her hind wheels, then no, but I've had tremendous luck with him
 

bryan6807

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sorry I dont know what I'm talking about having seen heavy calves out of tyson, guess i was imagining it.
 

Warrior10

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You would be best off going with a PB Red Angus or Angus....or like stated Majors Money Man who is VERY proven. Sunseeker heifer in my avatar is bred to the red angus bull Fat Tony and will calve this spring.
 

Cattle Cards

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Someone recommended Tyson to me on my Chi heifer but someone also recommeded Prince (link below).  Me, I don't know.  I had to ask, too.  And I don't understand why we have to throw away our first calf.  Shouldn't we be raising cows that will produce?  It always used to be that way.

http://www.lautnerfarms.com/allsires/prince.html

Seems like you're getting some good information.  Me, I got beat up about my Heat Wave heifer...
 

willow

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The only calf I have ever had to pull out of this one particular cow was a Tyson calf.  This cow was six years old at the time.  Fluke?  Maybe, but I would have to say no to your question.  I would not use him on heifers. 
 

kfacres

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Here is the thing folks-- you gotta remember that the bull is only half the equation...  and when you're breeding crosses with unknowns to crosses with more different unknowns... you're just waiting like a time bomb.  

Think of it this way- breed this crossed up bull who does let’s say 75% calving ease (average BW of g-parent's being- 60-65-70-105.  If you average them together, that's an average BW of 75 for the bull...  

Take an average Angus heifer- with similar birth weights- lets use the exact same just to make my typing shorter and easier.  

So if you take that 75# heifer, and mater her to that 75# bull-- you should theoretically result in a 75# calf-- which is acceptable by most show oriented people's standards to pop out of a heifer.  However, if the bull takes after his grandpa with the 105# BW- and the heifer takes after her grandma with the 70# bw-- you can expect an 88# calf-- which most all of the time is not desired in a first calf heifer.  

Let’s use the two extremes- heifer takes on the 60# bw- and the bull takes on the 105#-- that's going to result in a 83# calf being born- borderline, IMO

Now just think that if that's a show heifer who's getting grained heavy- and the genes line up so that her future baby gets the BW from the 105 lb grandsire, and the other 105 lb granddam- you’d better be ready to install a zipper to get that 140#er out...  

So- by using proven Angus, red or black bulls on these first calf heifers—most all of the time you are taking that extreme outlier of birth weight potential clear out of the equation.  Most AI promoted Angus bulls of today, are not considered throwaway producers, in most people’s opinions.  I know of several operations who take these basic F1 Angus/ composite females and use them as their keepers for that extra shot of maternal in there—or I know of one person (thinking Chambero) who takes these and sells the steers as high $$$ Angus steers who compete and win at the majors…  

Doesn’t seem like such a bad thing after all--  proven calving ease on heifers- and potentially a niche market of selling outstanding Angus steers—or keeping phenomenal replacement, maternal oriented heifers…  

I realize this is just figured genetics into the equation and there is more to birth weight and calving ease than birth weight.. like environment and calf shape… but in an example I can only type so long before I create a book of ‘what ifs’
 

chambero

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Cut the BS said:
  I know of several operations who take these basic F1 Angus/ composite females and use them as their keepers for that extra shot of maternal in there—or I know of one person (thinking Chambero) who takes these and sells the steers as high $$$ Angus steers who compete and win at the majors… 

Not so much on the high $$$, but we do raise competetive Angus-type steers and replacement females that way.

This may sound contradictory, but in general people worry way too much about calving ease for breeding cows.  At least down here in our part of the world where we calve in the fall.  However, most people don't worry nearly enough about calving ease for heifers.  The most overwhelming variable for getting a baby on the ground safe and sound out of a heifer is the heifer herself - her size and most importantly in my mind - her willingness to get down and push.  Some heifers just don't know what to do that first time - and I think it is a lot worse if a heifer is by herself. They start having contractions and hurting, and some are just restless and won't lay down and get with it.  In a group setting, they seem to figure it out better.  We calve out 40-50 heifers a year and more often than not we either have to assist the very first one that calves or we lose it for some reason or another. 

I believe you have to give a heifer every advantage you can when it comes to having that first calf and there still aren't any sure things.  My biggest calf born and hardest pull out of a heifer this year was a purebred Emblazon heifer bred to OCC Prestige - one of the best and most proven Ohlde calving ease bulls that exists.  I calved out About Time and Sunseeker heifers that didn't have to be touched.  We use almost exclusively calving ease Angus bulls.  I expirament with something else for a "special" one sometimes, but we are set up to handle trouble.  We have a dedicated calving parlor 200 yards from my house, an internet camera system where I can watch them from my house (or anywhere else in the world for that matter), at all hours of the night, and a wife, two boys, + a host of friends that can pull a calf any time night or day. 

I hate the term "throwaway" calf.  I don't know who all used it in this post, but in my opinion frequent use of that term is a symptom of ignorance when it comes to raising show calves.  By definition, very few calves born should be good enough to be "great" when it comes to show.  Lots of things are bigger variables for having a great calf out of a heifer than just genetics - it's milk, its mothering ability, environment, etc.  The odds are stacked against them.  Any cow, I don't care how expensive, has done her job if she raises a good commercial steer or replacement female.  The rest is luck.  You can buy expensive cattle, flush them, etc to increase your odds, but you still have to get lucky.

In short, if you don't know what you are doing when it comes to calving out heifers and aren't willing to or can't put in the work during calving season to baby sit them (having a vet's phone number doesn't count), breed your show heifers Angus the first time.  It's no guarantee, but your odds of taking care of your girl to ensure 10 more calves in the years to come are a lot better.

And by the way, Tyson is a real good Maine bull.  Use him for heifers if you meet the above criteria.  If you don't, don't.  Whoever posted they'd seen big ones (as in bigger than a heifer needs to have) is absolutely correct.
 

kfacres

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chambero said:
This may sound contradictory, but in general people worry way too much about calving ease for breeding cows.  At least down here in our part of the world where we calve in the fall.  However, most people don't worry nearly enough about calving ease for heifers.  een big ones (as in bigger than a heifer needs to have) is absolutely correct.

I couldn't agree more, especially on fall calvers.. Anything after a 2nd calf heifer-- needs to be worked over at calving time... 
 

rlrlks

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It doesnt matter what you breed clubby heifers to you still have to live with them to get a live calf.  If you don't want to put in the work don't raise clubbys pure and simple it's not for everyone.  I don't mind pulling a few calves we are set up for it so it's no big deal.  We use Tyson on heifers and yes we will pull a few but every Tyson calf we have had has sold for a premium.  Just decide what your priorities are and pick a bull in the end you have to do the work.
 

ZNT

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We are promoting a proven easy calving Tyson son, Montego Bay, but his pedigree on his dam's side has been as much of an influence on his calving ease as Tyson has. Tyson calves can be pretty chunky, even with low birth weights, you may have to assist, so if you have concerns about assisting your heifers, you may want to either consider Angus or a more consistant easy calving sire.
 

renegadelivestock

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thanks everyone for the input, like i said in my first post, im a shorty guy, this sunseek heifer was supposed to be a fun little side project,just to add to the conundrum this has become, she is a th carrier as well...we have an easy calving shorty bull at home, but she has mainetainer papers, and i was wanting to stick witth the maine deal.

ZNT, is montego bay available in canada?
 

renegadelivestock

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chambero
it's not that i don't know what im doing, or not willing to put in the time, i just want to proceed with as much chance of getting a live, valuable calf as possible, imnot suggesting that an anguds calf would be a "throw away", but im most interested in keeping wiht the maintainer deal, the heifer herself barley slippied into the registry from a % stand point, so i have to go high percentage maine to keep up the paper work. im it come down to it, and i cannot find a suitable maine influence bull, i will beed nher to my own proven calving shorthorn bull
 

mark tenenbaum

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Im a Shorthorn guy too-but really think other breeds have made huge strides-in real performance,thickness,and calving ease.As such,Im fading out somewhat from the BS purebred deal after over 20 tears,I JUST DONT BUY THE CRAP ANYMORE,and am not about to mislead anyone about the currant linebred show cattle-they just are not functional for a normal user,anymore than the Heatwave,etal cow killers. . If you can get the Ali clone,Dirty Harry,or Dirty Harry2,it might get you close,with Sunseeker,YOUD BETTER WORRY MORE about a live calf than a maintainer.I dont know what all is in Canada,Raymond Gonnet should be able to steer you to the right semen. O0
 
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