up to 150,000 dead cattle in South Dakota

[RyanChandler]

Ryan, really, strait to politics, you can't show any compassion for your fellow rancher or the situation they are in, that is really sad.

I feel for those in the area and hope things get turned around before the real winter sets in. Like it was stated previously, strong people with strong resolve will persevere.

I just find it interesting how people's perspectives change once they become the afflicted.  There's so much disdain surrounding the Katrina situation regularly expressed on this forum- I find it ironic (well not really) that many feel sympathy is only justifiably extended to those you personally relate to. 

I'm compassionate to their situation.  Really.  But the facts of the matter are that their loss is your, as a beef producer, gain. In case you've forgotten, they compete in the same market place as you and I do.  As a result of their circumstances, there are now less players- and until the FSA floods their pockets with tax-payer-funded disaster relief cash, cattle prices across the country will be on the rise. 

Now, if you want to act all sentimental and call me out for not bringing forth prayers and stating exactly how much $ I plan on donating :-tacky at best, that's fine- but when cattle prices rise and you, personally, reap the reward... take a moment to reflect back on what event actually caused the shift in price, and what event is directly responsible for the extra money in your pocket.  Chances are, by then, you won't mind too much  (thumbsup)

 

[vc]

Ryan, Davidsonranch, not aimed at you at all, Xbar got it. There are times to leave the Liberal, Conservative politics out off it and hope for the best for those people.

Xbar, yes others will benefit from it, but I bet most would prefer it did not happen to their fellow colleagues. We work 24 hours a day 7 days a week after wildfires in our area, but you won't find many in my Field hoping for wildfires, sometimes the devastation is just to hard to forget, no matter how much you make.

 

[oakview]

I have no lack of compassion for those truly hurt in the New Orleans hurricane, or for those harmed by any natural disaster.  My beef is with those who choose to do nothing but wait for the free handout, even many years after the event.  Our church youth group went to New Orleasn two years ago.  One of their projects was to assist with the clean up of a boulevard.  The tree lined center portion of the street had essentially remained untouched for several years after the storm passed.  It was completely filled with various forms of debris.  Our youth group picked up all the garbage, tree limbs, you name it.  There were plenty of onlookers in lawn chairs, but no one volunteered to help.  They lived there, but did not offer their assistance.  I'll wager that if our youth group went to South Dakota, they wouldn't be cleaning up the mess by themselves.  They would join an effort already in progress.  I'll bet you double or nothing that the mess is cleaned up in six years.  My beef is with those fully capable of helping themselves sitting idly by watching someone else do their work, waiting for a handout, and with the government that all too eagerly trains them to do it.  In exchange for votes, of course. 

 

[justintime]

I have no lack of compassion for those truly hurt in the New Orleans hurricane, or for those harmed by any natural disaster.  My beef is with those who choose to do nothing but wait for the free handout, even many years after the event.  Our church youth group went to New Orleasn two years ago.  One of their projects was to assist with the clean up of a boulevard.  The tree lined center portion of the street had essentially remained untouched for several years after the storm passed.  It was completely filled with various forms of debris.  Our youth group picked up all the garbage, tree limbs, you name it.  There were plenty of onlookers in lawn chairs, but no one volunteered to help.  They lived there, but did not offer their assistance.  I'll wager that if our youth group went to South Dakota, they wouldn't be cleaning up the mess by themselves.  They would join an effort already in progress.  I'll bet you double or nothing that the mess is cleaned up in six years.  My beef is with those fully capable of helping themselves sitting idly by watching someone else do their work, waiting for a handout, and with the government that all too eagerly trains them to do it.  In exchange for votes, of course.

Lonny ... you hit the name on the head! This is exactly the big problem in society today. There is an old adage " life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we react to it".
I often wonder that in our attempts to help everyone who exist in the lower ends of society by providing government assistance that comes in many different forms, if we have not also created a situation where we have stole their incentive to improve themselves and their lot in life. That probably sounds very cruel but I do not intend it to be that way. There are definitely people in our society that need assistance. No question about that. There are also many others that live off the fat of the land with no reason to ever try to change. I think most every family has heard someone in their family comment about some time in their past when their family was very poor, but no one seemed to know it because everyone worked together to make ends meet. The family was happy and appreciated everything they had. That glue that bound many families together in hard times seems to be disappearing today, and probably part of the blame can be placed on many of today's social assistance and aid.

 

[RyanChandler]

Government subsidies-WELFARE- are the only reason farmers aren't still in 'the lower ends of society,' as you put it, Grant. The largest sect of welfare recipients are farmers- who accept funds in the form of ag subsidies.  "No reason to try and change"- you betcha! just take the tractor another round.  When Obama increases the numbers of people receiving food stamps, WHO DO YOU THINK BENEFITS!!!?  I've had my share of Lone Stars on this rainy day but I can't help but question- 'how can you bite the hand that feeds you?- and hold a straight face?'

 

[Mill Iron A]

Never been a farmer but I fully admit that the beef industry is subsidized through the government subsidizing cheap corn, I do not ask for it but it is a fact. I agree that we need to help those in need through communities not government. We need to be able to be more independent of the government, would beef prices go down? I have no idea, I don't have a crystal ball. The one thing I do know is some idiot who has never dealt with ag or one trying to scratch some backs should'nt be able to affect it. The government has to be here to regulate things free trade won't but they are not here to fix prices which is where we are with grain markets today which also affect beef prices.

 

[Pleasant Grove Farms]

Posted on Facebook by an affected rancher:

"After the storm, we begin the job of trying to find the cattle. It became apparent that each live cow or calf was a joy. One did not have to look very far to see our loss and that of neighbors. We value the neighbors we have, their loss, the suffering the cattle went through before they died crushes your soul."

http://animoto.com/play/iWWD0ThIfaRxnttJ2j4LKA

For all of you political ppl out there....pretty sure these ranchers are not sitting on their butts waiting for a government handout.  They are out gathering up and burying their animals at their own expense; it is killing them emotionally; it is changing who they are and it is an event in their lives that some will never emotionally recover from.  Our son is an attorney in Rapid City who serves a good number of these ranchers and he says without doubt there will be a good number of them who will get out of the business; who's spirits are crushed, who have lost all belief in the future and in their own abilities as a livestock owner.  This loss to the ranchers is very emotional; XBAR, your words make me angry.  The ppl who lost their homes in Katrina did NOT lose their way to make a living; I would venture to say that these ranchers would have gladly traded their homes if only the lives of their animals would have been spared.  Why don't you folks who are against government assisting in times of severe disaster like this come on out to South Dakota and help in the search and gathering up of the dead livestock.  Don't give any money, don't give anything material, but just come on out and work alongside our ranchers to bury their future.

 

[knabe]

When Obama increases the numbers of people receiving food stamps, WHO DO YOU THINK BENEFITS!!!? 

no one.

 

[BTDT]

Pleasant Grove - Every time I bury an animal it changes me. So I can certainly understand their devastation. But, I do not agree that they are burying their future. Their future is from this day forward, and how they rebuild and remain resilient.  Most of the time, they do not want money, or even replacement animals, all they want is understanding, compassion and empathy.  They just want everyone to know, including peta, and the humane society, that they lost the animals under their care and they could do nothing to prevent it and would have if they could have and that they are indeed devastated emotionally from the suffering and the loss of their animals.

Mill A - I am sorry you have never farmed. You have never witnessed the joy of a new born calf that you own, nor have you felt the total devastation and helplessness of losing an animal. I do not care what your profession is, but nothing compares to the ups and downs of farming, nor does the lack of control of forces that can determine your future. 

xbar - oh what to say to you? How about this: Do not ever compare people who are working hard and will instantly start to rebuild to those in LA who apparently could find cardboard and a marker to beg for help, but seemed to lack the common sense to leave when they had 4 days of notice. The ranchers are already rebuilding and cleaning up, when it has been darn near a decade since Katrina and yet those people have done NOTHING to help themselves or their situation. Lets not forget the fact they were stealing large screen TV's when they were waist deep in water and had no electricity, yet apparently couldn't feed their children?
And lets not go to the "welfare" situation in this country. I am betting YOU benefit from welfare, either directly or indirectly. I am presuming you eat food you did not personal grow on land your ancestors created. I am betting you use oil, fuel and breathe air. So do not point fingers and accuse, when you are right beside those that you are accusing. If you live in the country, you have also benefited from electricity subsidies to make it worth it to electric companies to get you power in the middle of nowhere. You obviously have internet... that too has been a gov't program to make things "equal" to city folks. Keep in mind, these words are coming from someone who has 0 gov't programs and 0 subsidy checks. I am also sick of those getting freebies and the "deserve" vs. the "earned".

I wish them well, but also understand they will persevere and overcome, as they have in the past, with or without the gov't.

 

[Pleasant Grove Farms]

to BTDT---their cattle were their future in that they paid their bills and allowed them to make a living to make a future; there are several ranchers on suicide watch and one that has reportedly killed himself over this tragedy; they are so overcome with the devastation and the death and the hopelessness of the destruction.  As we face winter coming (it's not even here yet), some ranchers have NO cows left to care for and anticipate spring calving, some ranchers have surviving cows that have aborted their calves from the stress and some have aborted from getting into the trees and eating the pine needles; alot of cows are quite fragile from being weak and may yet die from effects of the blizzard; that area got hit again the last several days with another foot of snow and 2-3 inches of rain....instead of looking forward to the fall roundups and taking their calves to the salebarn to sell them for a profit making price, these ppl have to nurse what calves they have left back to health so that they can undergo the stress of the salebarn; they have lost pounds off the calves and spend more money to doctor them while trying to do it in deep mud, snow and rain. 
You say they are tough and will persevere, that maybe, but a human being can only endure so much pain.

 

[RyanChandler]

When Obama increases the numbers of people receiving food stamps, WHO DO YOU THINK BENEFITS!!!? 

no one.

In the long run- I agree. But in the short term, you know better than that, knabe.  You know it artificially inflates the price of ag commodities and all inputs related to production ag in general.

XBAR, your words make me angry.  The ppl who lost their homes in Katrina did NOT lose their way to make a living; I would venture to say that these ranchers would have gladly traded their homes if only the lives of their animals would have been spared.  Why don't you folks who are against government assisting in times of severe disaster like this come on out to South Dakota and help in the search and gathering up of the dead livestock.  Don't give any money, don't give anything material, but just come on out and work alongside our ranchers to bury their future.

There were almost a half million people living in NOLA before Katrina.  To think there weren't tens of thousands of small business owners that lost everything-their home, their business, potentially the lives of their family members- is just outrageous.  Again, its documented over and over again:  Isolation precludes the ability of humans to sympathize with those they can't personally relate to. I'd suggest a nice long vacation for you.   

I'm not against government assistance.  I'm against those who are proponents only when its convenient for them- or in other words, only when it affects them.

 

[Pleasant Grove Farms]

XBAR
I toured the Katrina devastation.....
I am not isolated.
I've NEVER expressed any opposition to government assistance to devastation on these boards.

What is your problem?

 

[RyanChandler]

Define devastation.  (rhetorical)

No problem.  You pointed out the lack of aid "from our president and those in Washington, DC."  Clearly, you feel it is warranted.  Others, have said - "they don't want it."  Perhaps the 'river' puts off some vibe that dictates the moral/political divide in your state.

 

[Pleasant Grove Farms]

yes, dear you do have a problem.
I found you on Facebook and you would appear to be about what I thought.

you don't even know anything about me and yet you make rude and snide remarks....
that I am "isolated", therefore stupid, I presume?
that the "river puts off some vibe...yadayada"

I don't agree with BTDT saying they don't need help and they are tough and resilient but BTDT is polite and I will let him make his point that I don't agree with because he is courteous.
you, however, are inflamatory.  Herein lies your problem.  Why do you feel you need to be this way which gets the whole original discussion off track?

FYI:  (sigh)  I may live east river (by 10 miles) but I have many good friends and family west river.
I have a son who, as I said before, is an attorney in Rapid City...here is his bio...(coming from isolation XBAR will be interested to see)
http://www.costelloporter.com/attorneys.php?id=112  he serves a good number of the affected ranchers

I have another son who works for a world-based company based out of Baltimore MD, BUT lives in Black Hawk, SD, a community of Rapid City.  Coming from the isolated conditions XBAR indicates we are under, I am sure he will be surprised to hear that this young man makes a great 6 figure income and he can live anywhere in the world he chooses, BUT he chooses Black Hawk, SD,
working from an office IN HIS HOME...

XBAR, do you know what "pro bono" work is?  I am sure you do because you are so worldly and I am so isolated.....
As proud and pleased as I am with my two sons and their careers, I am much more proud of their philosophy of life; their attitudes of giving back to
their communities....the attorney does his share of free work for those that can't pay; in fact he has one client that brings him a box of candy every
so often as her only payment and he enjoys that.  The other son is the first one to donate his time and talents to needing situations; both of these young men feel not that they are ABOVE anyone, but that we have an OBLIGATION in life to give back to those in need or to those less fortunate.  They are polite, courteous and encouraging, perhaps XBAR, you could add those 3 words to your persona.

So back to my original topic,
150,000 dead cattle in South Dakota.....

it will be impossible for a great many of the affected ranchers to survive without government assistance.  especially for the young folks whose cattle were carrying loans on them....unlike small business owners in Katrina, who could have and should have purchased insurance for their businesses, insurance on livestock is very prohibitive cost wise IF you can get it.  Many of the dead cows were carrying borrowed money; how can a loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars be "survived" by only being "tough and persevering"? 
Another thing that is puzzling is why some on this board feel that these ranchers don't want help?
this article just came out in the New York Times...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/16/us/as-south-dakota-ranchers-face-storms-toll-us-helping-hands-are-tied.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20131016&_r=3&

Ranchers pay lots and lots in personal property taxes, and XBAR, even as isolated as I am, I KNOW this      because I am one of those property owners that pays out thousands in personal property taxes.  We ranchers also pay taxes on all of our purchases, which is supplies, we do purchase lots and lots of fuel, seed, fertilizer, spray, fencing supplies for miles of fences....why, when something of this magnitude occurs can't ranchers have assistance from that same government who collects all of those tax dollars from us?

 

[BTDT]

Pleasant Grove Farms - I think you have misunderstood my point or I made the point very poorly. The ranchers DO need help and assistance. But they refuse to DEPEND on it and WAIT for someone else to do their work until it arrives.  They are proud enough and self reliant enough to put on their big boy panties and do without assistance if so needed.  Unlike those folks in Katrina land who apparently would rather sit and die than do something for themselves.

Sorry if my point was muddled.

 

[Mill Iron A]

BTDT, I guess I need to clarify my point I have ranched most of my life and been involved in the beef industry the entire time, what I meant was I have never farmed, like raised corn or anything like that with machines. I raise livestock, my point is that livestock are subsidized but not as heavily as most grains.

 

[nate53]

http://poetbiorefining-macon.aghost.net/index.cfm?show=4&id=0702BF54

 

[vc]

X-bar, I feel your comment was a bit callus and poorly timed.
What I really find offensive are comments made by non AG people on some of the news sites and one individual on a blog from Beef Magazine. The low informed populous, makes me wonder where they get their info if they get any at all. Apparently if you raise livestock, cattle in particular, you are rich, heartless, a murderer, and and only feel regret from the money you lost when you lose an animal or animals. Ya that describes everyone I know that raise cattle or livestock. (Sarcasm)

I have a few head of cattle and know how it bothers me when I loose a calf or cow. I can not imagine the gutwrenching feeling that many are feeling as they go survey what is left of their animals, it has to be the worst.

 

[RyanChandler]

X-bar, I feel your comment was a bit callus and poorly timed.
What I really find offensive are comments made by non AG people on some of the news sites and one individual on a blog from Beef Magazine. The low informed populous, makes me wonder where they get their info if they get any at all. Apparently if you raise livestock, cattle in particular, you are rich, heartless, a murderer, and and only feel regret from the money you lost when you lose an animal or animals. Ya that describes everyone I know that raise cattle or livestock. (Sarcasm)

I have a few head of cattle and know how it bothers me when I loose a calf or cow. I can not imagine the gutwrenching feeling that many are feeling as they go survey what is left of their animals, it has to be the worst.

Perhaps poorly timed.  A legitimate question nonetheless.  Some cattlemen do fit that stereotype- without question they are the minority.  That being said, I do think it's the obligation of those of us who treat our animals with the dignity and respect they deserve to expose those that do not- as opposed to kicking despicable practices under the rug in an attempt to save face with the populous.  Despite what you and maybe others feel about the lack of sympathy expressed in my comments, I have as large of a concern for animal welfare as anyone on this board, and the thought of losing my cattle in that fashion is unbearable.  While I don't feel it's the responsibility of the tax payer to absorb their loss -as reasonably priced agreed value insurance policies are/were available- I do commend the efforts of those across the country who are volunteering their time and money to help. 

 

[Pleasant Grove Farms]

Got a first hand story from a rancher who lives only 20 miles away from us; but had bought land out west there in hopes that the oil fields will work their way down from North Dakota and they may strike it rich on his property......(another whole thread of discussion)...

That family runs about 1,000 momma cows; had 260 of them out west there for this storm.  As soon as the weather was fit, the 24 year old son went out west with a snowmobile to find their cows; he had to ride 30 miles to get to their pasture on the snowmobile and he knew it was not going to be good as he saw dead cattle all along the way, but he hoped somehow that some of their cattle would be spared; he said he got to their pasture and found 34 dead cattle in a fenceline, but then found about 35 more alive and so he was hoping to find a good many more alive also.  He said he topped a hill and looked down a ravine into a creek that cut through the pasture and there were the rest of the cows; approx. 190 cattle and calves.....all dead in the creek.  They were in layers; the first group went in and the next group walked in on top of them and crushed them...they all perished.  He said he had to vomit; he said how terribly bad he felt all along the way to the pasture to see other ppl's dead cattle, but he said when it is your own, it is a searing, tearing, wrenching pain; indescribable. 

The whole discussion about whether or not tax dollars should assist with the losses; maybe one of personal preference; the livestock indemnity program doesn't cover their whole value, but it is a help; it isn't enough to replace all the losses but it is to keep the rancher from being put out of business. 

I believe the whole topic of if we want to assist families in a crisis such as this is much larger than just that question....if we don't assist them, a good number of them will be forced to go out of business; what will come in and replace them?  Very likely won't be another family situation but large corporations.  Who do you want to raise your food?  Who will do a better job of being sure animals will be cared about and the quality of the product will be safe?  A corporation or a family rancher? 

We carry insurance on our cattle (as most everyone does), as a part of our blanket coverage of our ranch but that coverage only covers certain things.  Covers lightening, covers drowning, doesn't cover snow nor chilling rains and 70 mph winds nor hypothermia.  To get coverage that will cover EVERYTHING is cost prohibitive.  A storm of the magnitude that occurred out in western SD had never happened before; it is being compared to the "children's blizzard of 1888", but even that isn't a comparison because that one happened in January when snow is a common occurrence in this country. 

I do, as you can probably tell, fully support the livestock indemnity program, which is the brain child of South Dakota's own senator John Thune; as I said before, ranchers and farmers pay lots and lots of taxes; we provide the citizens of the United States with a low cost safe food supply.... when an event of mass destruction like this occurs, I don't feel that it is wrong to assist those who have lost so very, very much.