Wally Klose herd sire

[3 Eagles shorthorns]

Wally klose's old genetic bull named Harvey. Any thoughts ?

 

[3 Eagles shorthorns]

Harvey Fultons pedigree

 

[LLBUX]

The bull is going to be criticized for being shallow bodied
and too large framed for today.

I like the apparent growth and productivity shown.
What I like best is the angle and line of his joints and structure.
He also appears to be heavy boned.

If he is truly moderate in birth weight, I
could see the bull being of value in a breeding
program, especially a commercial program.

I don't see steer calves winning any shows,
but I could see some females doing well as
momma cows.

Above all, I see calves being growthy and productive
for the feeder and packer.

 

[librarian]

I almost bought a full sister to the dam of the Harvey bull a couple years ago.
She went to Lake Front Ranch in North Dakota. Here is a link to their bull sale.
http://www.lakefrontranchshorthorns.com/uploads/5/0/0/8/50080975/lfr_shorthorns.pdf

To me ,Harvey looks like a good dual purpose bull...more milking type than beef. The first picture is Hillview Hobo, (not related, just similar type). He is an older Dual Purpose bull.
The second is 32Z with Harvey Fulton himself ( my idea of a pin-up)
The third is 26A.
I don't understand why Harvey the bull looks so tall. I would expect him to be short. Maybe someone can explain this.
But, judge him by his daughters...I bet there will be some good ones. I think his usefulness would be to invigorate the Native cattle, but he's not pure Native so those folks won't want him.

 

[Dale]

Are you sure the person with the bull in the middle (Kenmar Ransom 32Z--Tank) is not Don Cagwin?

 

[librarian]

No, I just always thought that was Mr Fulton. Thanks for the correction.
I've had a crush on the guy in that picture forever. Alas, I thought he was the man, in his prime, described by JIT in the epic thread from 2008. What have we learned about the uses of old genetics in the intervening years.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/finding-semen-on-old-bulls/
"Harvey just passed away last year and was in his mid 90s when he died. He was still checking cows and feeding one group of cows right up until his death... and he knew each and every cow in the herd. When Harvey was about 80 years of age, he lost his driver's licence. This did not stop him from driving to the farm every day. He simply purchased all the land between the town, where he lived, and the farm.... and he made his own road on his own property so that he could drive to and from the farm."

 

[Doc]

Are you sure the person with the bull in the middle (Kenmar Ransom 32Z--Tank) is not Don Cagwin?

If that is not Don, they could have been twins.
I was a huge Canadian Image fan for years. One of my 1st show heifers came from the Peppermint cow family and was out of a Image dtr. We used Image quite a bit.

 

[justintime]

Yes, that is Don Cagwin in the middle picture of Tank. Don was the person who purchased Kenmar Ransom 32Z and he found him in a commercial herd in Manitoba that had purchased him from Harvey Fulton. The bull was considered to be a monster when he was shown and many people said they had never seen a Shorthorn bull that huge. Obviously, they had never saw any pictures of Shorthorns from the 20s and 30s.

I have a picture of two bulls my grandfather had that were named Grand and Reserve Grand at the 1930 Regina Bull Sale. I look at that picture often and wonder why they went away from that kind of cattle.
I also have a large certificate that my grandfather was awarded at a local fair for having the Supreme Beef bull. It has pictures of Shorthorns, Herefords and Angus all around the outside and I would give my eye teeth to own any of them today. One Angus cow is absolutely incredible and if she were alive today, I am quite sure you could buy a nice size farm for what she would bring at auction.

 

[RyanChandler]

I don't understand why Harvey the bull looks so tall. I would expect him to be short. Maybe someone can explain this.

I would attribute your expectations to the fact that you're used to seeing pictures of these genetics only after they've spent half their life on a free choice high energy ration.  It's amazing how an inch of back fat can do so much to distort body proportion. 

I'd like to see this bull with more natural rib shape but he looks to have some positive qualities.  I'd have to agree with llbux here: "What I like best is the angle and line of his joints and structure."

 

[librarian]

XBAR, you always bring up good points about evaluating animals.
I also like the Harvey bull and I too was wondering about the fat cover on him
I also see the floor on the picture slanting up. The Tank picture is one of the few I've seen where the fence in the background is level with with the back of the bull. Hillview Hobo seems  deeper in the flank and maybe that is another reason I think Harvey looks tall.
Mainly I try to estimate height relative to the humans in the picture, but they always seem to be behind and above the animal.  I wish there was a height reference on the wall in the pictures, like in police line ups. A level line with frame size references would sure help.
I think my main misconception is thinking 32Z was a short bull (by todays standards) of borderline frame 4-5 height, but very heavy for his frame size. 26A looks smaller than 32Z, like a 4. How far off am I on this?
Yes, it's the proportion of muscle weight to height I'm looking for, not a layer of fat like a growth ring on a tree.

 

[oakview]

Don Cagwin, the gentleman holding Kenmar Ransom 32Z, is not a short man.  32Z was definitely larger than a 4 or 5 frame score.  We were measuring bulls about that time (at the shoulder mostly) and the taller bulls were realistically 60-62" tall.  Clark was supposedly nearly 72" according to the advertising, but was probably not really that tall.  I think Friggio (fullblood Chi) was one of the few bulls that I thought was really that tall.  I would guess 32Z about 58 or 59 inches tall.  His most famous son, Mill Brook Ransom G-9, was about that tall, too.  Columbus, a half brother to Clark, was one of the most widely used dual purpose bulls of the era and I would guess he was no taller than that.  Another half brother, Spiro, was significantly smaller in stature and had a good reputation as a calving ease sire. 

 

[librarian]

Thanks oakview, I sure had 32Z imagined all wrong. This is the beauty of SP.
Sorry to go sideways from 32Z and 3 Eagles post, but since The new ASA site forces us to go thru the EPD page on every animal as we try to work backwards on pedigrees, I have noticed that  a jump in WW and YW usually follows G9. Are EPD's calculated on performance of ancestors or performance of progeny?
And even if we are doubtful on G9's sire, we can be certain of his dam, Thomas Doris 26A.
Her MGS is a familiar name, Coronet Max Leader, making his dam a half sib to Leader 21?
How do you folks think the Leader blood showed itself in G9 offspring and who the heck is Oakville Red Doris?

AND, I was looking at Leader 6th progeny and see he was used a lot at Mill Brook. How did that work out?

 

[oakview]

The Millbrook (R. Lee Johnson) herd did quite well with the Leader 6th progeny.  I attended the 1972 (I think) national show held at the Illinois State Fair and the champion bull, Thomas Durham 76B, and the champion heifer, June 6B, maybe, were both sired by Leader 6th.  If memory serves correctly, Ransom 32Z was after Leader 6th in sire procession followed by some dual purpose cattle.  It seems as though these had Lilydale breeding in them. 

 

[JohnWayne72]

I almost bought a full sister to the dam of the Harvey bull a couple years ago.
She went to Lake Front Ranch in North Dakota. Here is a link to their bull sale.
http://www.lakefrontranchshorthorns.com/uploads/5/0/0/8/50080975/lfr_shorthorns.pdf

To me ,Harvey looks like a good dual purpose bull...more milking type than beef. The first picture is Hillview Hobo, (not related, just similar type). He is an older Dual Purpose bull.
The second is 32Z with Harvey Fulton himself ( my idea of a pin-up)
The third is 26A.
I don't understand why Harvey the bull looks so tall. I would expect him to be short. Maybe someone can explain this.
But, judge him by his daughters...I bet there will be some good ones. I think his usefulness would be to invigorate the Native cattle, but he's not pure Native so those folks won't want him.

26A wasn't a big bull but he definitely was not a frame score 4.  I have attached a couple mature pictures because it seems the only picture out there is probably a yearling picture.

 

[librarian]

Just updating that this is the same bull Mark O0 posted in the HSS thread. Click see larger view in this ad for great resolution. I wish his feet were visible. http://www.ranchworldads.com/classified.php?listing=116720