Warning! Topic may get heated!

[shorthorns r us]

a real reason would close the port rather than just spoil a container or two.  look what lead in chinese toys did to the toy biz.  providing poor quality, ie. contaminated,  product is never a good business decision.  this is one opportunity for the showring to be a real turd in the punch bowl for the entire beef cattle industry.  show cattle are nothing more than the the fat on the edge of the industry; that fat will get trimmed along time before the meat is sacrificed.

you certainly do enjoy arguing for the sake of argument.  me too!

 

[SWMO]

The end result of this scenerio is what are we teaching the next generation by having this attitude in our youth sponsored events whether it is livestock shows, spelling bees or sporting events.  It's OK to cheat as long as no one finds out regardless of what the posted rules or laws are.  Just don't get caught and it will be ok.  Anything to win.

So, those kids that are learning from this attitude are the young adults that I will be hiring in the next 5 to 10 years.  I would suppose that their philosophy is that it will be ok to lie to me, to steal from me (either in time or money) and that they really don't have to do what I have told them to do.  I already have a hard enough time hiring anyone under the age of 30  that has any kind of work ethic.  I tremble to think that it will get worse. 

I personally want my own children to know that you may not always win but if you have put the time and effort in to your project that when you do win it is a sweet feeling like no other.  I want my children to have ownership in what they are doing whether for themselves or for their future employers.  An honest day's pay for an honest day's work.  I want them to know right from wrong!!!

 

[chambero]

This case is a great example of why shows are extremely reluctant to enforce their own rules.  The public ruckus a positive result causes for the people trying to enforce the rules is ridiculous.  You can never make everyone happy and someone always wants to get attention via their own little public display.  In my opinion, the Fair Board is catching way too much heat for this.  The are the AUTHORITY in this case.  They caught a violation and took action.  Maybe not harsh enough - but their rules (and lawyers) might not have let them do more.  Obviously someone wanted to do more because they subsequently formalized their rule and put in writing a 5 year ban.

And then along comes the family that wants to attract attention to itself by "making a stand" and exercising their "free speech".  If I was on the fair board I would have been hacked off by that display of painting animals also.  That family doesn't know what went on behind closed doors in discussions with the family that used dex.  If you want to "protest" in a respectable way have at it.  But that was just an attempt to get attention.  I'm guessing the Fair Board had their reasons for requesting the written apologies.  I'm guessing there is a little more to the story here.  And if they refused to comply with the fair boards ruling, their guilty of violating the same principal that the original offender did.  But then everyone wants someone else punished to the greatest extent possible, but never themselves.

If those parents really don't like what went on, then they should get themselves elected to the fair board.  I bet there will be plenty of openings from people who want off after getting crucified on this deal. 

 

[buyer]

This case is a great example of why shows are extremely reluctant to enforce their own rules.  The public ruckus a positive result causes for the people trying to enforce the rules is ridiculous.  You can never make everyone happy and someone always wants to get attention via their own little public display.  In my opinion, the Fair Board is catching way too much heat for this.  The are the AUTHORITY in this case.  They caught a violation and took action.  Maybe not harsh enough - but their rules (and lawyers) might not have let them do more.  Obviously someone wanted to do more because they subsequently formalized their rule and put in writing a 5 year ban.

And then along comes the family that wants to attract attention to itself by "making a stand" and exercising their "free speech".   If I was on the fair board I would have been hacked off by that display of painting animals also.  That family doesn't know what went on behind closed doors in discussions with the family that used dex.  If you want to "protest" in a respectable way have at it.  But that was just an attempt to get attention.  I'm guessing the Fair Board had their reasons for requesting the written apologies.  I'm guessing there is a little more to the story here.  And if they refused to comply with the fair boards ruling, their guilty of violating the same principal that the original offender did.  But then everyone wants someone else punished to the greatest extent possible, but never themselves.

If those parents really don't like what went on, then they should get themselves elected to the fair board.  I bet there will be plenty of openings from people who want off after getting crucified on this deal. 

There is A LOT more to the story.  They protected the guilty party all the way around.  Why?  If you read the ODA report, it is very clear the whole family was involved (probably not the young boy, he wasn't mentioned) They even lessened the punishment set forth by the ODA.  The buyer - he found out the steer he bought was injected with steriods from the newspaper.  The processor called and told him the steer could not be processed at this time but could not offer a reason why.  I am a buyer, and the way they handled the situation scares me.    They should not protect ANYONE that literally tants meat 

 

[knabe]

The buyer - he found out the steer he bought was injected with steriods from the newspaper.  The processor called and told him the steer could not be processed at this time but could not offer a reason why.  I am a buyer, and the way they handled the situation scares me.    They should not protect ANYONE that literally tants meat 

so has the buyer been reimbursed?  as someone who still has one foot in the door of naivite, this is the part that is really upsetting, basically turning off non-ag people to ag.  some buyers buy these steers for a variety of reasons, to support the program, to purchase a "superior" product, though judging from what was hanging at our last fair, this just simply isn't the case.  it's pretty apparent that as a leader of these groups (which i am not) i would be ashamed at the lack of marbling and almost non-existent fat cover we have in our shows.  obviously it's different in the midwest corridor.  in my area, i've seen ads of kids in desparation hanging ads to help them finish their steer.  to me, again, in our area, it's more about the show than it is getting some of these animals ready for market.  the miss rate on these steers alone wouldn't qualify some of the leaders for jobs in the feedlot industry.

I personally will NOT purchase an animal that has gone through our fair.  i support the program through other means.

kids, parents, leaders should keep in mind the customer to purchase their product.

of course, that said, this is proably the exception to the rule?  i don't know, just susceptible to the negative hype at this point.

 

[DL]

I am sure that the person/company that purchased the Grand Champion steer for $7743 will be absolutely delighted to support youth ag activities in the future.

buyer - If the kid was not required to return the full amount - ie the Fair Board had him return $5,407.50 - did the buyer get fleeced for the difference or did the Fair Board make up the difference?

 

[fluffer]

This is just a side not that popped into my head when I was reading the last few replies,

I buy livestock at a few county fairs for the company that I work for.  Regardless of species, more often then not, does the kid come and thank me or the company.  Every year it gets worse and worse.

I know this is off the subject a little bit, but I just thought I would through that out there.

Fluffer

 

[red]

good point DL. Wonder how they figured the pay-back price? Was it based on no check-off money & all the little things they tack on?

Red

 

[knabe]

when i was in college, we bought and sold the same steer to several parties as a way for them to get some publicity and not take delivery of the steer.  one steer i did this 3 times till someone eventually donated it to the boyscouts. when that steer was butchered, it basically was all roasts.  another steer went to lockheed and they donated it as well.  another steer went to lockheed as well (my mom was a secretary there.)  another steer went to some neighbors.  i wrote all the letters for steers that were not mine (and kept copies and thank you's from them).  you bet i was kinda pissed when the kids who raised the steers didn't even thank me for selling THEIR steer.  believe me, i had no trouble taking all the proceeds from a sweet corn project they didn't help out on either.  i made about $1500 bucks that summer on that alone.  you can't imagine the people coming out at farmers market wanting to support the college buying corn from the "corn project".  same thing happened with a hay project i was on and others. 

guess all those rich farmer/rancher kids cared about was the 1 credit they got "being" on a project.  course i had something to learn, they already knew it.  most people don't realize that college is the last time they will ever learn so much in so little time and to take full advantage of taking as many classes as possible.

 

[DL]

good point DL. Wonder how they figured the pay-back price? Was it based on no check-off money & all the little things they tack on?

Red

My understanding is that the ODA "suggested" the entire purchase price be returned but that the fair board over ruled that decision....buyer may know more

yeah fluffer you are right - another black mark for ag

 

[kimbaljd]

This is just a side not that popped into my head when I was reading the last few replies,

I buy livestock at a few county fairs for the company that I work for.  Regardless of species, more often then not, does the kid come and thank me or the company.  Every year it gets worse and worse.

I know this is off the subject a little bit, but I just thought I would through that out there.

Fluffer

We have a small fair after our county fair to sell all the animals that dont make the auction. They will not pay out any checks till they get  the kids thank you notes in the office with the secretary.

 

[knabe]

dusty, i agree with very little of your premise, ie

BS, more S, piled higher and deeper,

learning is obviously lifelong, but will never be as dense and in areas that round out one's knowledge.  i assume if society was left to educate themselves, it just woudln't get done.  obviously, once again, it's a strawman argument to say that $1.50 is more effective than organized institutions.  you will never have that access to so many people with so much knowledge and so many industry contacts, including other students.

I'm not sure i would hire a molecular biologist who was trained at the library, if i did, it would be for a lot less money.  believe me, i have hired the type of people you are talking about, and they were for programming, and they did well.  all the rest, not so much.  they hit a ceiling pretty fast.

have you hired anyone educated at the library? or seen statistics that show that library learning can be deployed in a larger fashion that is more effective for society?  this would be a breakthrough.

i'm also pretty sure that libraries are relatively empty for a reason. there is no structure, and most humans can't progress without some structure.

i don't think you would let a doctor operate on you educated at the library would you?

strawman, once again.

 

[Jill]

This case is a great example of why shows are extremely reluctant to enforce their own rules.  The public ruckus a positive result causes for the people trying to enforce the rules is ridiculous.  You can never make everyone happy and someone always wants to get attention via their own little public display.  In my opinion, the Fair Board is catching way too much heat for this.  The are the AUTHORITY in this case.  They caught a violation and took action.  Maybe not harsh enough - but their rules (and lawyers) might not have let them do more.  Obviously someone wanted to do more because they subsequently formalized their rule and put in writing a 5 year ban.

And then along comes the family that wants to attract attention to itself by "making a stand" and exercising their "free speech".   If I was on the fair board I would have been hacked off by that display of painting animals also.  That family doesn't know what went on behind closed doors in discussions with the family that used dex.  If you want to "protest" in a respectable way have at it.  But that was just an attempt to get attention.  I'm guessing the Fair Board had their reasons for requesting the written apologies.  I'm guessing there is a little more to the story here.  And if they refused to comply with the fair boards ruling, their guilty of violating the same principal that the original offender did.  But then everyone wants someone else punished to the greatest extent possible, but never themselves.

If those parents really don't like what went on, then they should get themselves elected to the fair board.  I bet there will be plenty of openings from people who want off after getting crucified on this deal. 

A fair board is like any other organization, 80% of the people do 20% of the work.  You probably won't see anyone new running for the fair board, no one wants to do the work, they just want to gripe about the decisions made.  Been there, done that, this is every county fair in the country, some things never change.

 

[chambero]

This is just a side not that popped into my head when I was reading the last few replies,

I buy livestock at a few county fairs for the company that I work for.  Regardless of species, more often then not, does the kid come and thank me or the company.  Every year it gets worse and worse.

I know this is off the subject a little bit, but I just thought I would through that out there.

Fluffer

I guess maybe this isn't the intent, but most of our shows won't release a check to a kid until the kid gives them a photocopy of the thank you note that was mailed out to the buyer.  Unfortunately most of the time momma wrote it, but at least its something.

For what its worth, my 8 year old boy sold his first steer a few weeks ago at our county show.  I explained to him what a very generous thing the buyer just did for him and sent him out to shake the buyers hand and thank face to face him within five minutes of getting his calf out of the ring even though the sale was still going on.  It was quick and discrete, but I suspect it was appreciated and remembered.  I might have had to tell him to do it the first time, but I didn't go with him.  Part of making a boy learn to be a man.

Not to be taking shots at others, but in our area the "steer kids" are always pretty good at this because its a constant, year round project.  The "pig, sheep and rabbit kids" at our county show seem to think of this as an easy way to a payday and take things for granted a little bit more. 

 

[sawboss]

Our Ag. Teacher requires our students to have a minimum of five Thank you notes written before the sale, he then writes down the buyers of the steers for the student so they can address them.  After tying the steer the student proceeds to distribute the Thank you notes during the sale.  After our photos arrive the student  must then visit the business and present them with a photo of their animal and thank them again in person.  I know as a business owner this means a lot, we have helped purchase show animals in the past and never knew what student received our money.  I think for some this is a forced effort and the buyers truly know which child is appreciative of their support, and will continue to look up those children in the future sale lines.

 

[knabe]

Bill Gates was a college dropout...Some of the greatest innovators in the world are what they are because of their own drive an ambition not what they learned in college.

so what do we do for the one's with no drive?

not to be bleeding heart liberal, which i'm not........

 

[knabe]

i realize we provide jobs for them, that's a given, but how do we educate them, or do we simply assembly line dumb down and segment the jobs so that we have essentially a caste society.  this country is reasonably successful in that we have provided a transition between the two realms and essentially created super workers whose jobs skills didn't require investment in systems that took longer to develope than an industry.  this turnover is getting shorter and shorter, and i'll admit, i'm not necessarily against a pushback of having adjusting worker skills and numbers with reality, but...

right now, i'm headed to jack in the box.  the fast food people a long time ago determined that one had to segment jobs into repetitive tasks (ie ford) so they could hire the least skilled worker possible.  we have converted these jobs from kids living with their parents, at least in my area, to adults who can no longer live with their parents and must live at higher densities in order to purchase a home on sub prime loans.  these densities violate local zoning ordinances and the communities ability to tamp down crime.

where is all this going?

 

[Jill]

Have you not ever heard the old saying B students work for C students and A students teach. 
Business courses are taught by people who have never owned a business, how does that work?
This country has no shortage of college educated folks with a piece of paper, what is lacking is the skilled worker that does a labor job.  A good aluminum welder can pretty much name his fee because no one wants to do manual labor anymore, no one wants to be a plumber, or electrician, or mechanic or welder, there are only so many computer programmers a system can support.

 

[knabe]

there are only so many computer programmers a system can support.

perhaps jill, you have hit the nail on the head which is that companies are the new "countries" as they span the seemingly tired concept of countries and are less constrained by closed systems (countries).  i haven't yet figured out yet, how market forces haven't yet found a way to deal with the wage suppression of thug economies.  oops, i just answered my own question.

 

[DL]

I guess I am always wary of someone who professes how smart they are yet continually bashes formal education - it makes me wonder why such a vituperative reaction - here are jerks with lots of degrees, there are jerks with no education, and there are jerks in the middle. There are also incredibly talented and smart people with lots of degrees, with no degrees, and with some degrees - to lump everyone together is a fairly naive and juvenile approach to learning -

Formal education in many ways is what you make of it, not saying that we all can't learn in multiple situations, but you very often get out what you put in - Bill Gates is like Magic Johnson or Steve Jobs or many others - they have something special - most people can't do what they do. Arrogance crosses all levels of education  (thumbsup)