What bull to use on Jakes Proud Jazz heifers ?

[sue]

Captain bred - pasture rig

 

[Hilltop]

Do you know if there is semen available in Canada from Captain O?

 

[knabe]

Bull calf from Denver pen-  sired by Captain Obvious

move to the left about 10 degrees, let that right hind rear foot even out and that would be an awesome pic.  he has a nice line from his mid rib to his poll.

 

[sue]

Do you know if there is semen available in Canada from Captain O?

No semen in canada. We talked about it but not this year. Matlock Shorthorns will have a son of his up there soon. We have a bull and 3 heifers consigned to Ohio Beef Expo.

 

[linnettejane]

have those catalogs been sent out yet?  do you have pics of your consignments?

 

[sue]

Linnette

I do not have pics posted yet- but if you go to our web page we have video of the girls and the bull. Two of the heifers selling will measure right at a 4.0 frame and weigh just under 800 in the video. The other pair are closer to 900 and frame high 5. The girls are not clipped and pairly combed. The bull - frame scored a 5.0 in denver with 37 sc at 11 months.  Bull video taken in Dec- www.lakesideshorthorns.com
I bet they post the catalog by the end of the week- 92 lots, 10 plus hfrs, 19 bulls

 

[Doc]

Some of these bulls listed won't accomplish what was asked in the 1st post. That is what bull to use without further reducing frame score. An example is the Captain O. reply where Sue is telling about the hfrs that are selling at Ohio, that are a frame score 4. I think breeding that bull (& some of the others listed)to the majority of JPJ hfrs out there , will give you a bunch of puds. When it is all said & done we still sell cattle by the pound .
I know there are some smaller framed cattle that can have some decent weights & performance, but just because they're smaller framed doesn't mean they are going to be easy doing.
I've gotten along with several type bulls on hfrs. There are even some full Irish bulls that I would use with confidence on hfrs , without sacrificing frame. I know that I don't calve out as many hfrs as a lot of people , but with a smaller herd when you lose one it hits your bottom line a lot harder than someone calving out say a 75 hfrs a year.
Once again, everyone talks about the dam being 1/2 of the equation . They usually talk about this in a negative in the fact that the cow contributed to the larger birthweight. By the same token the dam can also help you reduce the bwt. I'm not saying that you can get away with breeding a bull with a 6.0 BEPD to a hfr just because she has a 0.2 BEPD. I'm just saying that you don't have to breed 2 extreme low BEPD animals to each other just to ensure that you get a live calf with minimal assistance.
JMO.

 

[sue]

Doc
It 's interesting that you think a 4 frame female that weighs 800 lbs at 10 and 9 months is a pud??  What do your females weigh at this age?

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I think that some of us shorthorn breeders have a slightly distorted idea of "pud" a 5 frame calf that weans at over 700 lbs is not a pud.  Remember most frame size is only leg, and there isn't much good eating in the leg. 

 

[OH Breeder]

I think that some of us shorthorn breeders have a slightly distorted idea of "pud" a 5 frame calf that weans at over 700 lbs is not a pud.  Remember most frame size is only leg, and there isn't much good eating in the leg.  

Not trying to side track post BUT.....

Davis I think you bring up a very valid point. I send 1300#'s fats to market all the time. Granted some may be 4 some maybe a 6 but they all sell good. I guess it is all in what you want to raise. I consider a "pud" a low performing no grow animal. Small or moderate structure animal that can perfrom and as you said wean a calf is what I want. We have cows from 4 to 7 in our herd and I like the diversity. I am not sure where the 48" mature state fair steers are coming from but they aren't coming from frame score 6 and 7 cows. Ohio State Fair top calves last year were all under 50".

I like your analogy on frame score.

 

[Doc]

Doc
It 's interesting that you think a 4 frame female that weighs 800 lbs at 10 and 9 months iasn't trying s a pud??  What do your females weigh at this age?

Sue , I didn't say that your hfrs were a pud. What I said & meant was that a bull that sires 4 frame animals used on a small framed JPJ hfr will greatly increase your odds of producing a calf with a smaller frame & a greater chance of less performance. I agree with OHB in the definition of a "pud" . I think that you can get a pud from bigger framed cattle also. It's just that with the smaller framed cattle IMO you are starting off with an extra step to take. I think that a lot of people think that just because they are smaller framed means that they are going to be easy doing & easy calving and that just isn't so. Just like people thinking that because the bull has been dead 20 years means that he is going to be the next outcross producing saviour.
Once again it depends on your target audience & what you are trying to accomplish with your cattle. I know that you won't take a 4 frame to L'ville & compete with the guys that have the 6 to 7 frame hfrs that are winning. Not at this time.
Didn't mean to offend anyone . The good thing is we all like different kinds & the people that like the small framed cattle wont be bidding against me on the ones that I like.

 

[sue]

Doc
It's true I have seen some short, narrow based cattle.  My avenue is different from most SH breeders.. I still haul my puds to Louisville and the money  looks the same there as Denver or Ohio or TX or KS or WA. Now Canadian money looks different .... but I breed and show what I like and some how I still get money for it. They didnt take a purple banner at the bank though? Some of what we do will generate purple banners too? I want pasture cattle I guess
But on a note regarding Gizmo X JPJ mating- I just finished watching Linnette's video of  2010 calves and she has a JPJ X Gizmo baby that is thick and very attractive... check it out!

 

[DLD]

Not to say that they're all this way, but our Gizmo x JPJ mating didn't work out all that great.  Some of you might recall that I posted some pics of a really impressive looking bull calf, which we cut and fed out to show. He really didn't make much of a market steer (never even showed him, as a matter of fact).  Though he looked really stout as a baby, he ended up being just average muscled and average boned, marginal on soundness, and deeper chested.  Hopefully that mating will work out better for everyone else, but for us, that was a big disappointment.

Some folks may frown at this one, but her (our JPJ daughters) last calf was out of Jazzman, and she looks great so far.  It wasn't my first choice, but we couldn't catch her in heat to AI and got the chance to turn her out with him.  This time she should be bred to Leroy Brown.

 

[CJC]

You could try WHR Tonic. He's calving ease.

I believe I am going to try him.

 

[ShowmanQ]

You could try WHR Tonic. He's calving ease.

I believe I am going to try him.

We have a Vortec X Lucky Charm bred to Tonic for "calving ease", so we'll see how that goes. We also have a heifer bred to JPJ. In my own opinion based on what I have seen JPJ is the one to use for calving ease  to bring your cows/heifers down in size, while Tonic typically makes them with a bit more frame.