What do Charolais members remember about Charolais bull FR 31 ----

[Freddy]

Some of us older Charolais members were talking about an old French bull called FR 31 AVIGNON that was a  very big influence in the Charolais  in the late seventy's I think ...

 

[BogartBlondes]

My neighbour had a bull sired by him in the mid-90's, we used him on a couple cows that didn't catch AI. The only thing I really remember about the calves is that we pulled about 6 of my neighbours and both of the ones we had. They were 120+lbs calves. One of the neighbours ended up c-section. Not totally sure whether it was this bulls influence or the mother's side, but whatever it was it didn't help the death rate

 

[olsun]

when the first charolais were imported directly from france. they were nearly all hard calvers, We never used the bull you mention. but we did use a bull that I really liked. called Ali Baba Bramard. and he was a very tough calver, I still have some in the tank. but am scared to use it,

 

[Mark H]

I remember  Avigon from when i was a kid along with Ali Baba Bramard, Belphagor (Bingo), Aiglon, Elcair, Caid etc.  I think that he was imported directly into the United States from the Bahamas instead of Grosse Ille, PQ.  He was considered a very moderate birth weight bull by the standards of the day.  He was as easy calving as TEE Anchor aiglon or Alger bbetter performance.  Many breeders like the bullscalves for their feet and legs.  They are good rancher type cattle.  Avigon was used by WAT-CHA  farms, LOCH-LO and Pattons in Canada. Patton's had calves out of him as late as 2009; so some Avigon offspring may still roam the earth.
Ali Baba Bramard has negative birth weight EPDs with decent accuracies in the AICA summary: (-1.3 acc ,73) wiht a -14 yearling weight.  The fact he may have been a hard calver back then may have reflected on the cows he was bred to since the average cow size has increased so much.  My favorite Ail Bramard bull was the Edgar Phillpott half french bull SIR SANS F25, a good moderate easy calving bull for his day ( very similar to the other Edgar Phillpott bullwith ABS Crown A30). 
Man have we come along was from those days...

 

[Freddy]

Did they have any success in the show ring in those day's ....Some say a lot of the French bulls had structure problems ,weak pasterns ...

 

[Mark H]

Bsck when Full French came in they dominated the shows given that they had better growth and muscle than any domestic Charolais around. Hamm Mogo is a good example of the type of animal winning at that time-he even has the same bloodlines from then.  The biggest problem with these cattle wasn't structure.  It was breeding ability.  Full French bulls frequently had small testicles (Hamm Mogo has this problem) and the heifers would not breed until 2 years old like in France.  Culling solved this problem.  The french cattle were the tamest Charolais cattle around at the time; the domestics were very wild and many animals were sent to town because of this.
A later French bull that dominated the show ring until Poker King Jr. showed up was Hannibal.  Once the pencil gut fad was over big muscled bulls like SVC Futurist dominated the show ring.
For entertaining stories on the early French Imports Jim Chatenay gives some good stories about their cattle buying in France: http://charolaisbanner.com/newcbsite/charolais-reminiscenses/  Note the number of shorthorn breeders that became Charolais breeders in the 1960's.

 

[Charo]

A lot of Charolais cows here have Hannibal and Amour de Paris in their pedigree. Our father bought only bulls, AI bulls became a practice at the end of the eighties.

 

[Mark H]

I remember Amour de Paris very well. Francie Borgal raised a world record yearling weight  full french bull calf at the time 1740 LB out of him named Excel.
The most influental Full French bull via son Cougerhill Hank is Cyrano 32D.  The best modern Full Fench bull is Impair is you can get the semen at any price.

 

[BogartBlondes]

I had an Impair calf about 2 weeks ago off of a commercial Char cow. Nice calf, a little tall for the show ring maybe but will make a nice stocker if nothing else

 

[RyanChandler]

Ali Baba Bramard has negative birth weight EPDs with decent accuracies in the AICA summary: (-1.3 acc ,73) wiht a -14 yearling weight.  The fact he may have been a hard calver back then may have reflected on the cows he was bred to since the average cow size has increased so much. 

There's a lot of truth to what you're sayin here,  Mark.  My grandpa imported a few Fullbloods in the late 60s and they (he and his brothers) had been bringing Fullbloods in through Mexico years before that.  He tells me he had his share of calving problems 130lb calves but, like you said, in an attempt to upgrade as many cattle as possible, people were breeding these fullblood bulls to 900lb Hereford cows.  Big birthweights were a problem but little cows sure didn't help the situation any. 

 

[Freddy]

The breeding problrms in he  PB Charolais back in 60-70's ,and proably the eighty's came from MOSTLY Texas cattle imported to mid-west ...In this period 90 per cent of the cattle had BRAHAMA influence that didn't help docility, fertility and carcass quality ,The herds that got started without this progressed a lot faster in the mid-west states ....The Avignon cattle were raised by Double Hook Ranch and the designer group  ...

 

[RyanChandler]

Now that's just outrageous, Freddy.  The brahma influence saved the breed in the South.  Lowered bw's SUBSTANTIALLY, increased growth rates, increased parasite resistance, increased maternal instinct - the fertility and carcass quality was a wash as both these characteristics were the shortcomings of the early imported fullblood bulls as well.  The herds that got started w/o this are mainly the ones STILL having BW issues to this day. 

 

[Freddy]

X-BAR -FOR YOUR COUNTRY DOWN SOUTH I think you are exactly right, but in our northern country the things that helped you wasn't a problem for us .  Herds like Michaelis , 4T AND Yates were some of the early seed stock providers ,MICHAELIS ranch had also cattle in OLD MEXICO that had the French influence also ...Most cattle in 60's were with the brahma influence , but these ranch's were miles ahead of the others with cattle that had no brahma ....Our ranch bought most of their early cattle from the Michaelis and was a super advantage IMO ...4T RANCH had some COTANO breeding and the prettiest females ,had mother look ...The Yates ranch also had good females but seemed like they didn't show as much ...

 

[RyanChandler]

fair enough-  though I'd question just how many of those bull coming out of Mexico had no brahman influence.  I have a lot of pictures from my Grandpas fullblood cattle.  I need to scan and save them soon.  Here is a picture of one of his first imported bulls- I think he told me this bull was quarantined in Canada for, I wanna say...2 years?? before he was able to pick him up in Ada, Oklahoma- 1969.

 

[RyanChandler]

^ I wanna say this was a Bayard son-  but I can't remember for sure.

 

[Mark H]

I had some of those Brahma influenced cows out of the US.  Good cattle but disposition problems.  Tthe Michaelis, and Yates cattle wwre baically fullbloods.  Don Pochylko traded Michaelis half of Aiglon for a group of fullblood cows.  Thes cows went on to be the founation for many central Alberta breeders. Michaelis also has red factor cattle from these fullbloods one called MGM Merlot is very good,

 

[RyanChandler]

Is this the same Michaelis that's in Kyle, Tx?

 

[DaveK]

Some of us older Charolais members were talking about an old French bull called FR 31 AVIGNON that was a  very big influence in the Charolais  in the late seventy's I think ...

here is his obituary.

July 4, 1982

HOUSTON , Tx. - Nutmegs Avignon FR 31 , a Charolais bull , owned by Gentry s Double Hook Ranch , Whitman , Neb .,- Holland House Charolais , Golden , Colo . ; and R&W Farms , lola , Kan ., died July 4 . Born in January 1970 , Avignon achieved over 200 Roll of Excellence show points and in March of 1977 was the first ROE sire to qualify and be inducted into the American International Charolais Association Hall of Excellence . Avignon s progeny are known for their productivity , femininity , milking ability and herd-changing characteristics . His genetic influence can be found in purebred and commercial herds in 30 states and the Canadian provinces. Used as the foundation of the intense linebreeding program on the Double Hook Ranch , Avignon has produced outstanding sons , such as Avignon G 703 , Sculptur and Sandhiller .

 

[Freddy]

Thank you DaveK ,that says quite a bit about him .....Yes the MICHAELIS RANCH at Kyle , was the home place and the ranch in MEXICO  I think was at EL FORTIN .....The men folks of family usually lived down there ....

Mark H --I  didn't know that the AIGLON bull was in that kind a trade, they had some very good females IMO ,AIGLON was one of the other great French bull and was used in my family's herd ,some of my cattle have AIGLON in their extended pedigree ....

XBAR-  Did the 4T ranch have brahma influence , I think they were from GEORGETOWN , Texas and the Turner family ....

Looked up some pedigree no. for AIGLON and some Michaelis  cattle and Avignon  in AICA pedigrees ...M45487  --F382314

 

[doc-sun]

i have a couple of units of alger in my tank. his son crestomere alger sired some good cattle for us in the early 70's. some of the best cattle i have ever seen were buff 3/4 charolais 1/4 shorthorn. the half bloods were good too.