What do ya think about this???

[Telos]

I feel the seller might think this (cloning) to be a positive marketing tool, to help create a sense of value. If an animal is worth cloning then surely it is  important and therefore worth more dollars.

My 'beef' (pardon the pun) is...If these critters are indeed great enough to be cloned then they will probably adapt to their environment and live a productive life with offspring better then themselves.

 

[DL]

I feel the seller might think this (cloning) to be a positive marketing tool, to help create a sense of value. If an animal is worth cloning then surely it is  important and therefore worth more dollars.

My 'beef' (pardon the pun) is...If these critters are indeed great enough to be cloned then they will probably adapt to their environment and live a productive life with offspring better then themselves.

While I might understand retaining why one might want the right to clone one spectacular animal or retaining the right to flush a couple of fabulous animals - the right to flush and clone them all suggests trolling for fish and I don't see how that is a positive marketing tool - to quote RW "If you don't know your cattle that you're are selling any better than that, maybe that's an admition that you don't know your own cattle." I am not convinced, but maybe people who can't think for themselves or who follow they hype will think that if they want to retain the right to clone it is must be great and maybe that is a marketing tool - hype at its best?? what did PT Barnum say??

 

[Show Heifer]

I ahve spoke with several of my cattle friends and NONE of them are comfortable with that statement. All of them said "sounds like they want someone else to do the work, promoting, and risk taking, and when it finally pays off, THEY will cash in."  Doesn't sound real fair to me.

And it is important to remember that there are TWO Sullivan families in cattle. Dan Sullivan, who is having the sale, and SULL Sullivan who is in Dunlap.  They are different families (although relatives), and have different cattle.

The only way to convince some of these people about DNA testing, is to call, and when they say "no, we are not testing" reply "Too bad, I had several dollars burning a hole in my pocket, but they HAVE to be tested for me to spend it."

 

[Turkey Creek Ranch]

I really hate things like this. If they want to get eggs or DNA from an animal. Why not do it BEFORE the sale!?!?!?!?! It would reduce a lot of headaches that would go along with them doing it AFTER the sale.

The eggs/DNA will be the same before or after the sale. Just plan ahead and do it before you sell them.

 

[shorthorns r us]

How about a different point of view?  I think the average nobody who trolled up that great one would be thrilled if he exercised that cloning right.

Please keep reading.

The day I get the phone call to arrange the hole punch I am on the highest mountain top shouting it to the masses.

If it is female and she is that good, you probably have multiplied her genetics by flushing.  So, you have a litter in the pasture, a litter on the way, eggs in the tank, and people lined up to buy flushes and/or eggs.  From the day they punch the hole, you have at least 19 months as the sole source for her genes.  That is 10-13 flushes worth.  A cow that I think is great may be "worth" only $1k/flush and $250/embryo.  However, a cow that Dan Sullivan thinks is good enough to clone is probably going to be "worth" several times more than that.  Check the results from the last couple Frozen Gold Sales.  Don't forget about the revenue from those calves in the pasture, the babies on the way, and the third years worth that will be born before the clone has any progeny available no less than 28 1/2 months later.

If it is a male and that good, you are selling tons of semen on the open market or selling limited amounts for outrageous prices.  If you are selling on the open market and he is only producing 300 straws/week at only $20, you are putting about $150k per year in your pocket; that would just be awful.  When the call comes in, raise the price; each $5 price increase will increase your bankroll by $75k.  If I did that for the 2 years it takes to get the clone on the ground and freezing good stuff, my pocket book would be very happy.  If you are selling a limited supply, you had better get on the open market, ASAP.  Sure, you are no longer getting to do it YOUR WAY; but, it would be better than a sharp stick in the eye.

This is a strike while the iron is hot business.  While the iron is smokin' hot, YOU GOT THE ONLY ONE!  Burn that candle at both ends.  Get yours before DSUL gets in the game.

Looks like Dan Sullivan just did you a favor.

Even if you still think life gave you lemons, might as well make lemonade.

Does that make the glass half-full rather than half empty? 

Pretty sure Knabe calls that Capitalism.

 

[Doc]

I really hate things like this. If they want to get eggs or DNA from an animal. Why not do it BEFORE the sale!?!?!?!?! It would reduce a lot of headaches that would go along with them doing it AFTER the sale.

The eggs/DNA will be the same before or after the sale. Just plan ahead and do it before you sell them.

If they did it before the sale ,it would be way to expensive to do on every animal. Also I would be very ticked off if they did before the sale & didn't let it be known.
Show Heifer, Yes they are different families, but they both have the same policies.

 

[DL]

SRU - I know you are the moderator with all skills powerful and wonderful BUT have you lost your mind??

You want me to spend big bucks on an untested animal with cloning rights (and remember flush rights) retained by the seller so that maybe they seller will think this is a great one and I will reap countless financial benefits because someone an important person thought she should be cloned??

Please consult your medium or preacher or shrink or whoever for a mental soundness assessment

 

[shorthorns r us]

You want me to spend big bucks on an untested animal with cloning rights (and remember flush rights) retained by the seller so that maybe they seller will think this is a great one and I will reap countless financial benefits because someone an important person thought she should be cloned??

Nope.  It is your money to do with as you choose.  Just want to show my differring point of view.  Appeared to me that everyone else was on the same band wagon.

The genetic testing grenade is an entirely different subject that was not a part of your original question.  However, dropping a load on a carrier female, especially THC, to raise show steers, that is what these cattle are for, would be a bad idea.  Couldn't breed her to Heatwave if she was THC.  Could, yes; should, no!

Marketing is a BIG part of the purebred cattle business.  In markting, Perception = Reality.  The Sullivan name can, at this immediate point in time, shape a great deal of perception in the world of show cattle whether it is preceded by John, Joe, or Dan.  I think I could substitute other names for different sectors of the cattle business.  In the Angus breed, Jarold Callahan would fill the bill.  Fred Derouchey (sp?) definitely would have and probably still can influence opinions equally as strongly withing the Maine-Anjou breed.

 

[Show Heifer]

SRU - completely understand your point of view but hows this one:

I buy a heifer for $10,000 and promote the crap out of her. She wins everything due to MY hard work, dedication, and MY investment. It was a "once in a lifetime" buy for me.  Dan comes and excerises his "right" to flush and clone her, and probably goes back to her mother and does the same.  My investment in the heifers genetics just halved due to the fact everyone would rather say "I just spent $10,000 at Sullivans to buy the full sister to Happy Holly that sold at his sale to someone and won everything."  I doubt if they say "I just bought a full sister from Jane Jobbie, who bought the heifer from Sullivans and I paid $10,000. Aren't I lucky?"    I would say Dan just cost me a bunch of money.
People in this business seem to flock to "well known names" to buy animals that maybe aren't so superior to what anyone else has, but the farm name sells the animal.  How else do you think "jockeys" make their money when the don't calve one single cow????

Still don't like it. And I'm not buying into it.  I'll make my money the old fashion way: I'll earn it on my own!

 

[itk]

How about this scenario. You buy a $40,000 donor from someone they have a bunch of ET calves out of said donor being born as we speak and a whole batch of embryos from said donor ready to be implanted. Two days after you get your new super cow home the seller calls you up and says they are ready to collect a cell line on her. It costs $20,000 to make a clone so the seller is still up $20,000 and will be having calves out of your cow until her clone is ready to start producing.

 

[shorthorns r us]

"I just spent $10,000 at Sullivans to buy the full sister to Happy Holly that sold at his sale to someone and won everything."

If I understand this correctly, Happy Holly is the heifer that you bought and successfully campaigned.  The owner of Happy Holly's dam is going to be selling full siblings anyway.  It seems to me that the owner of Happy Holly's dam is going to be profitting from your hard work; retained rights on Happy Holly have no bearing on this.

 I doubt if they say "I just bought a full sister from Jane Jobbie, who bought the heifer from Sullivans and I paid $10,000. Aren't I lucky?"

I don't understand your message in this statement.  You wouldn't be selling sibs to Happy Holly, right?  Wouldn't you be selling the progeny of Happy Holly, which may or may not be any good?

Should Happy Holly turn out to be a Super Cow (you must say that in an echoing voice) with a perceived value of $40,000, DSUL will decide to clone her.  Now your 19 months countdown begins.  If during that 19 months you sale 10 flushes for $7500 each (that price is very reasonable for a cow that is clone worthy), you have $75k in your pocket rather than the $25k you would have without the all important buzz; that's a $50k swing in your favor.  When the clone comes on-line as an embryo producer Happy Holly becomes worth only $20k; that's a $20k loss.  Combine the $50k cash gain with the $20k paper loss and I think you are $$$ ahead and the value of the clone is diminished with all those embryos and pregnancies out there.

People in this business seem to flock to "well known names" to buy animals that maybe aren't so superior to what anyone else has, but the farm name sells the animal.  How else do you think "jockeys" make their money when the don't calve one single cow????

Traders earn some of their money especially if service after the sale is provided.  I dislike some of their habits and practices but I think they have a reasonable place in the industry.  They can spend the time and drive the miles necessary to see thousands of calves.  That is something that most ag teachers, 4h leaders, and parents cannot even consider.  That is worth something.  As far as becoming a well known name goes for traders; if they aren't winning, that name is quickly forgotten.

For breeders with well known names, they bought it or earned it.  If they bought it, they probably won't be around when Happy Holly becomes clone worthy.  If they earned it, you and Happy Holly probably would have never gotten there without them.  Seems to me that the existence of politics in the showring is an accepted theory on top of the fact that they created your wonderful beast known as Happy Holly and you better make the most the time b4 she becomes clone worthy.

I am not saying that this is a perfect situation.  However, approached from a business point of view, it can be profitable.  I respect anyone's decision to avoid buying into this circumstance but I think it can be a good financial decision.

How about this scenario. You buy a $40,000 donor from someone they have a bunch of ET calves out of said donor being born as we speak and a whole batch of embryos from said donor ready to be implanted. Two days after you get your new super cow home the seller calls you up and says they are ready to collect a cell line on her. It costs $20,000 to make a clone so the seller is still up $20,000 and will be having calves out of your cow until her clone is ready to start producing.

This is a completely different scenario.  YOU GOT TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF financially speaking.  I guess this is always another option for Happy Holly.  ;D

In both of these scenarios, I see another side that has to this point been ignored.  What about the longterm benefit to your herd.  That everyone of our breeding herds would be improved with the addition of Happy Holly is the one thing in this entire post of which I can be certain without reservation.

 

[JbarL]

retuned late last night from a near month long trip to springfield, hillsboro, delaware,  athens co ohio areas....charleston, hamlin wva areas......chatanogga tenn, dalton ga. areas....havent even opend my sullivans catalog yet....(got to sort out the bills firts  :-\ )  but i think i'm the one who needs cloned....
A)...a clear represented statement prior to a sale is a binding contractual commitment to the buyer.  B)...cloning cattle and the ownership of "cloned" sibs, could (can) be a long term interpertational legal quandry....keep an eye on the legacy plus issue, and see how many years it take to sort all that iout and then how long it takes for restitution to be made ( my guess is 4 to 9 yrs).....C).....laws for cattle posssion are pretty limited to "stealing" them in the present legal arena.
D).....if this is a food source/ healthy herd issue, to you... it cant be that bad of a deal, if the clones are productive as well/.... if its a show ring issue to you... then its just another butt to kiss, and another excuse you'll have to justify you success/ or lack there of.    jbarl

 

[common sense]

Let's say you have been raising and growing a herd for a number of years and that you have several cow families that have made you a sizeable amount of money.  You decide that you are going to sell the cow family on your sale as part of a herd reduction.  You have worked for YEARS developing these cow families. You aren't going out of business, just reducing.  Wouldn't you try to retain some of those genetics for future use if you have the opportunity to grow your herd again?  Isn't it easier to let those genetics sell if you know that you can possibly clone one of them someday?  Is it that difficult to believe that there may be many different scenarios behind the reasoning of these sale terms.

Now lets say that you are having a sale and a potential buyer calls you up and says "Hey I want to buy this cow and I'm willing to pay a BUNDLE but I don't want to sacrifice an embryo interest or allow you to develop a cell line".  Are you going to tell him not to come to the sale or buy that heifer because you won't budge on your terms? Almost all of you have a cow that you think you wouldn't sell for any amount of money.  Well, what if somebody came along and offered you an amount you just couldn't turn down; wouldn't you consider keeping a cell line right or an embryo flush? Do you really think that would be unreasonable?

I guess the most important question is HAS ANYONE THAT IS TRASHING THIS SELLER BOTHERED TO TALK TO THEM PERSONALLY TO OBTAIN SOME FACTS??? 

 

[DL]

I guess the most important question is HAS ANYONE THAT IS TRASHING THIS SELLER BOTHERED TO TALK TO THEM PERSONALLY TO OBTAIN SOME FACTS??? 

"Sullivan Ranch also reserves one flush of eight or more grade 1 or 2 embryos at our expense on all females selling. Sullivan Ranch retains at our expense the opportunity to obtain DNA cell line for cloning purposes on all cattle selling in this sale"

Pardon me common sense but how does discussing what people think about what is printed in the sale catalog equate to trashing the seller? People don't need to call them to have an opinion about what is clearly printed in the catalog 

 

[Show Heifer]

Gee, common sense, didn't know anyone was trashing Sullivans.

And you obviously haven't read the other post about me being a buyer and parting with my money....."so, yea, common sense, I HAVE called Mr. Sullivan." That still doesn't give me the right to "trash" him, and I haven't been. I just don't like how he is handling his sale.

 

[Jill]

I am by no means trashing him.  I think Dan Sullivan and the Sullivan family are extremely good business men and if they can get those terms, more power to them. I think in the future you will probably see more of this.  I don't care to purchase an animal that someone else has the clone rights to, but that doesn't mean some wouldn't, I understand both sides of the issue and I can see where SRU has some valid points, the partnership thing hasn't really worked that great in our case, but that is just my experience.

 

[shortyisqueen]

Just curious as to how many people pick out which heifer calf will become their most productive and profitable cow when she's under eight months of age? Although I personally wouldn't want to be a part of a heifer I didn't have the entire DNA rights to (I'm alright with embryo partnerships!), I disagree with the statement that keeping a piece of everything equates to not knowing your own genetics. I find it is RARE to have your fanciest, stoutest, most show ring worthy heifer become your best cow and usually it is the sleepers in the heifer pen that bring home the dollars. Many of the greatest cows in the industry were never heard of until they raised a good calf and they certainly weren't the ones at the top end of the sales. Keeping a piece of everything doesn't mean you don't know your cattle - it just means you are realistic about the predictability of genetics lining up just so to make a great one.

I have retained semen interests in bulls (in herd use only), reserved the rights to a future flush (at the buyers convienience and my expence), and have sold flush interests in proven donor cows, but that was on specific animals - not any animal that I have ever raised. They need to get a reality check - just because you have had some success in the show ring doesn't mean everything one that you raise is or ever will be a great one. If you don't know your cattle that you're are selling any better than that, maybe that's an admition that you don't know your own cattle.

I sure have to agree with most of what you guys said but I think RW (AKA the Armed Gorilla) hit the nail on the head - they don't know their cattle - this is a huge fishing trip - we want to retain a little chunk of everything we sell because we haven't the foggiest what could be really good. IMHO true breeders know what their best genetics are and may want to retain the right to flush or semen interest on some of their best genetics. That seems rational and gives the buyer the option to not buy those animals which in essence makes you a partner with someone who could turn out to be at best a SOB and and worst the partner from hell (SRU - can we say hell or should I have said he**??) - there is of course the remote possibility that it could work out well for everyone.

 

[DL]

Just curious as to how many people pick out which heifer calf will become their most productive and profitable cow when she's under eight months of age? Although I personally wouldn't want to be a part of a heifer I didn't have the entire DNA rights to (I'm alright with embryo partnerships!), I disagree with the statement that keeping a piece of everything equates to not knowing your own genetics. I find it is RARE to have your fanciest, stoutest, most show ring worthy heifer become your best cow and usually it is the sleepers in the heifer pen that bring home the dollars. Many of the greatest cows in the industry were never heard of until they raised a good calf and they certainly weren't the ones at the top end of the sales. Keeping a piece of everything doesn't mean you don't know your cattle - it just means you are realistic about the predictability of genetics lining up just so to make a great one.

I can tell you without a doubt which of my cows will have the best calves and which of those calves if heifers will be the best heifers and which will be the best cows - I can tell you this based on what I know about my cows, what they work with, and what I know about the sires I use - therefore I could selectively predict which calves I would want to keep DNA rights on - retaining cloning rights on everything implies to genetic greed and not knowing your cattle, could be wrong, but JMO

and to clarify this is a generic statement about anyone who has a sale and wants rights to clone all 200 plus animals in the sale...generic

 

[JbarL]

.... on the flip side ....if i i advertise 3 cows for sale, and in the ad i "explectilly" express in writing that a condition of the sale is that NO cloning is permitted of any of these 3 particular cows, after you take possession,     then does that SEEM to make the animals a bit more exclusive, and worth more money than you would usually be willing to pay???....do you have any right to ignore the written conditon??....  do i have the right to stipulate the condition in the first place??...  the sale will be over the day after it ends. ....the questions and "scenieros" mentioned about this issue are just beginning, and,with no mention or prrecident of any penalty or remedy for not honoring such a condition then as long as the checks good,.. i'll take the money and you can keep  the cows. if you feel good about spending extrra money to retain DNA rights to these "exclusive" animals, and i feel good about the added money i made on this marketing tool then i quess its a win/ win.

 

[knabe]

going with SRU's direction (ie capitalism) i would feel ok purchasing a heifer from the catalog if i thought the risk of who i wanted to cross her to would do what i was interested in.  as far as i'm concerned, i would almost thank them for wanted to clone her, i would  just sell her back at cost even, since what i thought i produced moved me in the direction i wanted to go, since i am after very specific goals and the constant crossing of high dollar animals without regard to specifics just seems to produced high dollar structural disasters since no real plan seems to have been in place from a classical breeding perspective.