What if?

[vc]

I just got through re-reading the “why breed TH and PHA” post, and was noticing how many times the “what if a commercial breeder bought the calf at the sales yard” statement came up.
Here are my thoughts on the subject: A true commercial outfit does not buy their replacements at the sale’s yard, they buy replacements from a seed stock producer, some one who has records on the heifers. The guy buying replacements at the sale’s yard has more to worry about then genetic defects, there are a host of illnesses that could ruin a herd allot faster than TH, BVD comes to mind foremost.
If I was buying replacements I would want to buy heifers from maternal bulls, not terminal, I would what to see the cow herd they came from, and how they had been managed.
The first cows I bought came from a commercial Angus herd of about 300, in west Nevada. We had bought our first couple of steers from them, the ranch manager could pull his little note book out of his pocket and tell you want you wanted to know about each steer and heifer. As we sorted through the heifers and pulled the ones we wanted to choose from he would look in his book and tell me no she had 117 pound birth weight, or yes we have had her grand dam here for 8 years always produces a good calf or that one is out of a terminal bull, I would stay away from her. This is how I would want to select cows for my herd, not wow did you see those three heifers in pen 4 they shore look good, I sure that they just need a little feed to get back on their feet.
Granted with the drought in the south this past year you could have found some good cows and heifers in the sale’s yard but most of the time the cows there are culled for a reason. Just my 2 cents.

 

[aj]

I think it depends on what area the salebarn is located. If you take like the Mcook Nebraska salebarn......they sell pens of 40 head of heifers as replacement heifers. I think some of these "commercial" cow herds of say 300 head that spend big bucks have BETTER cattle than a registered cattle breeder that show cattle and doesn't put any natural selection process on their REGISTERED cattle. They've sold bred heifers out of Mcook for 1800$......non registered........replacement type. There is some awfull good cattle that come from the sandhills. Cattle that don't stem from the artificial show feed....type enviroment of registered cattle. Now a salebarn in West Virginia may be something else......I don't know. I went to salebarn sale at Oakley Ks. yesterday and there were alot of grundgy coverall ole boys with no bling that carried out 70,000-100,000 $ checks. No ai and no show trailer and no cooked corn and no blow dryers or dye. Again I think it is a regional deal. Good post and good comments. ps.......the great Improver bull came from a salebarn.

 

[kfacres]

I personally know of instances where people travel around buying up open heifers in small lots all over the place- small producers, odds and end calves, and either as a last resort, or all the time-- the auction mart.. then take them back home, group them up according to size/ weight, color, ect... pot them up, and ship out west or breed them and sell them as breds as the local bred heifer and cow sale-- back as the market place. 

 

[vc]

My guess is the guys that buy those bred heifers are also the same guys who report stolen cattle in October, last seen in February. See them twice a year when they load the calves for shipment. ( we have quite a few out west like that) You don't really have to cull, mother nature does it for you.
I am not saying that commercial guys do not buy at sales yards, just that I doubt they go down and buy 2 or 3 unknowns at a time to supplement their herds. I would think most have a ranch or 2 that they tend to use to replenish their herd annually. I think that calving heifers is hard enough with out throwing total unknowns and wild cards into the deal.

 

[kfacres]

My guess is the guys that buy those bred heifers are also the same guys who report stolen cattle in October, last seen in February. See them twice a year when they load the calves for shipment. ( we have quite a few out west like that) You don't really have to cull, mother nature does it for you.
I am not saying that commercial guys do not buy at sales yards, just that I doubt they go down and buy 2 or 3 unknowns at a time to supplement their herds. I would think most have a ranch or 2 that they tend to use to replenish their herd annually. I think that calving heifers is hard enough with out throwing total unknowns and wild cards into the deal.

I agree with you, but I don't get it either.  I know within an hours drive of my house, I can count three people buying heifer calves, raising them out, and reselling them either as breds, or just wet 2 year olds.  One guy says he does 1000 a year, and doesn't have enough.  The other says he does about 1500, and sells about 1300 of the top end as breds, the rest as pairs= going to try another 100 this year.  The last guy, doesn't get all that crazy with it, I think he just does a couple 100 that he sells mostly locally and around the state... 

I don't know who'd be dumb enough to buy a bunch of unknowns... but I've seen several of the females from these places.. the top end aren't that bad-- and on the bottom end.. well I guess if you feed them enough silage they'll look pretty good too!

 

[SWMO]

Joplin Regional Stockyards has rather large replacement cow and heifer sales.  Alot of these cows and heifers come from farms and ranches around the area that have raised the females,  however, other groups of these cows and heifers have been grouped up from several different sources and bred and sorted according to color, size and weight.  

All of these cattle sell well and are going back to the farm.  And you are discounting the farmer or rancher that bought a good purebred bull that is a carrier and has no idea that TH and PHC etc even exist.  He has used this bull extensively for several years and kept all of his heifers for replacement cows and now he has more heifers than he needs or maybe he is dispersing.  Those cattle are going on to the next farm or ranch and those people also have no idea that these females are potential carriers of one of the known defects.  They go and buy a good purebred "carrier" bull not knowing about defects or not too worried because they are not in the purebred business and it shouldn't affect them.  Breed their new cow herd to this bull and guess what, john q commercial producer just learned a very expensive lession in TH PHC etc
JMO

 

[aj]

I would not want to be in a breed who develops a reputation of being a carrier of genetic defects. There are two many options out there. The Angus breed eventually takes care of the deal. They won't register carriers. Thats the thing about a commercial guy who raises his own replacements if he finds a defect calf....he is in in neck deep and woe to the breed that got him their. They probably won't care till they get the first genetic defect calf. The breds I was talking about were reputation cattle. Alot of times it will be someones great grandkid buying the cattle from his neighbor whose great grand daddy new the other ole guy. They buy the the 7,000$ bull at a sale and alot of times the cowherd genetcis have been in place for a 100 years.

 

[vc]

Could happen, how many times has it happened? I would bet more guys commercial guys with Angus based herds got bit in the be nice buy the Angus defects then they did and TH and PHA (Mains still not a big player in the commercial side), I could see where someone may have picked up at good looking black bull at a sales yard that could have been a carrier, (not if the way they talk about club calves holds true, they have no need for that type of cattle, big boned, short, fat, pampered, hairy things)

When I think of a commercial outfit, I think of some who runs similar type cows and then selects bulls that will compliment them, most herds are probably British based and then they use pure bred Continental, or British bulls with them, depending if they sale all calves or retain the heifers. Or Brahma in the south (don't want you all to feel ledt out)

I would bet some buy those mixed groups of heifers, runs them on wheat all winter and them sells them as heavy breds in the spring. Not dealing with calving at all.

What it comes down to is the person, Club Calf or commercial, who does their homework, keeps informed, and knows that a deal that is to good to be true is probably that (not true) is less likely to get hurt or hurt as bad by genetic defects.

 

[Gargan]

Now a salebarn in West Virginia may be something else....

yes, you can get a gallon of moonshine at our sale barns to boot with ur hfr purchase AJ..lol