What is the definiton of "commercial"?

[trevorgreycattleco]

Part of my post isn't there. Garybob is my friend. Black diamond is also my friend. He is young and raw but his breeding skills are excellent.

 

[JTM]

Good post Trevorgreycattleco, I consider you a friend also. Now I will address the original topic question since my program has what I consider show cattle genetics and commercial genetics as two separate herds and some mixing of the two. The definition of Commercial Cattle is pretty much what Trevor Grey Cattle Co. said earlier. In my operation I have a section I would consider commercial cow calf. These are unregistered cows that are culled extremely hard based on fertility, calving ease, mothering ability, udder structure, structural correctness, hoof quality, and calf lbs. weaned. They also need to be able to perform well in the environment on only water, grass or hay, salt, and mineral. Stay with good flesh and still get bred during droughts, and not try to take me out when I come to tag their newborn calf. In other words, these cows work for me and make a profit on a very consistent basis. Commercial is not a purebred seedstock operation or a show cattle operation in my opinion. Sometimes it is hard to know the difference between purebred seedstock and show cattle operations, but there are. One supplies seedstock to the commercial cow calf operator and the other suppllies seedstock to the show cattle operator.

 

[J2F]

when did ? start meaning the middle finger on steer planet? oops.  Sure ticked a lot of people off.  (lol)

Let me start by saying I breed my shorthorn cattle herd (small)  on the show side of the seed stock/show pure bred spectrum of the line. I have not had my feelings hurt by any of the commercial / show debate on this site and feel I have learned a lot from the mind set of my potential customers. Most criticism I see has some merit and mostly revolves around any breeders that are dishonest with their customers on what they may be getting or suspected  politics of the show ring. I think the debates are leading to changes and knowledge of a lot of people and associations and making a positive impact. All though you have complete commercial on one end and show cattle on the other there is a huge grey area in the middle that does meet in the middle some where. Debate and some times yes heated debate must go on to eventually gain any change and sometimes you have to fight for what you believe to make sure things change (or not change) for what you know is the better. Look at our constitution and any other important time changing laws that are passed, they come with massive debate. But once the dust settles, it is time to put differences aside and work toward a common goal. I think both sides of the issue is out there and is time to start figuring out and making decisions on what the next step is that is best for the whole cattle industry. It is time for show cattle to do their part and get people interested in the breed, it is time for pure bred stock to provide animals that will work for F1 crosses to the commercial guys and it is time for the commercial guy to put it on the plate.

Their is a lot of people on this site and they all, everyone of us have one thing in common,,,WE Love Cattle  Sometimes we need to forget our differences and  remember our similarity's.

My 2 cents on the shorthorn breed:
We must advance our breed in the commercial marked to move our whole breed forward.
I don't know what more we can really do on the show side to improve and gain more market share. The show industry as a whole can work to shake the whole politics and cheating rumors that plague every show and sale I ever been to.  I think more people leave the show industry every year than join just for that fact. I see show's getting smaller and smaller it seems but I have no #'s to back that up only my own 2 eyes.

rant over: god bless everyone and have a good day.

 

[aj]

Out here commercial cow producer means non registered cattle. It means non club calf. It means not show ring. It means shooting for no genetic defects.

 

[Mueller Show Cattle]

I agree with J2F that we all have in common is cattle what ever you choose for breed and show or not show. I have been around cattle from the day I was born and my dad raised Angus/herford mix cattle with all Angus cows and herford bulls. To him that was the perfect mix for producing feedlot calves and still believes that to this day and would argue that till the day he dies, me and him have had many discussion on cattle over the years. I have commercial cattle also like I have said in the past, just own more cows that are for raising show cattle. My cows are not babied in anyway and they deal with very cold temperatures (-15) for most nights around this time of year and getting some cold times where it will not get over 0 for a week straight. So doll house or not, my cattle (show or not) do just fine in a harsher climate than most people produce cattle in. I don't put people down and not afraid to think whatever other people might disagree with as I believe in what I do as far as raising cattle. I raise show cattle for profit period! The winning of the shows just increases your sales and profit.

 

[KSanburg]

Good point Big M, I guess that I have never really thought about the definition of a commercial cattle operation, while we always recognized commercial ranches more as cow-calf and registered as registered. The fact of those individuals showing cattle really never crossed my mind. As a kid we had around 300 commercial cows and 150 registered cows. I showed steers in 4-H from the commercial herd and registered heifers from the registered herd. The first time I ever herd of club calves was because clubs from down in Texas would come to ranches here in western Colorado and would buy a set of calves for their club, then the ranches that the calves were purchased from would advertise that they had sold a set of club calves to club “X” in county “Y”. Then one of the first times I bought a show steer was from the club calf pen of 5 sale at NWSS from Gib Yardley (he was an Eldino calf), now the whole club calf deal has become almost as prestigious as most of the registrars when it comes to pedigree just without the papers, but I always wondered how anyone could consider a Heinz 57 (HW) the best in a pedigree of anything. But there are ranches/farms big and small that make lots of money with these mongrelized cattle. I am not saying they are right, wrong or anything in-between, they have found a way to make there outfit work with those genetics and I am quite certain that some of them make a lot more money with their operation than I do with mine. 30 years ago I don’t know of anyone that would have paid $20k for a Heinz 57 bull and probably wouldn’t have even considered buying him, hell he would have been cut and never given a second thought (now I’ve dated myself). So does it really make much difference if they are registered, commercial or club calf? If you are happy with what you are doing then that is all that you should worry about and not what your neighbor is doing. If you like his stuff then go use it, if you don’t then go someplace that has what you like.

So here is my motto; do what you want and have a little fun doing it!

 

[JTM]

So the debate continues...  O0

Show Cattle operation goal: breed winners
Decisional priority outcome: All traits go by the wayside in favor of phenotype, structure, hair, bone, clean fronts.

Commercial operation goal: Efficiency
Decisional priority outcome: Club calf marketability goes by the wayside in favor of real world traits.

Now if we can all stop pretending that this isn't true and quit trying to act like our cattle can do it all, then we may be able to have more civilized discussions... ;D

 

[rarebirdz]

I think u guys r arguin for the sake of it. Every cattleman wants a profit no matter what type they have. Otherwise wed all go broke

 

[Cattle Cards]

Out here commercial cow producer means non registered cattle. It means non club calf. It means not show ring. It means shooting for no genetic defects.

Almost got it right, but you had to get your dig in there.  The commercial cattleman is most concerned with lbs. of beef in the fewest amount of days.  Usually not concerned about papers but finding the right bulls to work on his cows, gives him hearty live calves and giving him the biggest, most uniform set of calves at weaning to be able to get his best price at market. 

A good purebred breeder is very similar, except he or she may sell seed stock to other purebred or commercial cattleman.  They will usually keep the top 10% of the herd for replacements.  They keep records on BW, WW, YW, etc.  And they are concerned with the improvement of the breed.  The may or may not be involved in showing those cattle to help promote their breed.

Then there's the club calf producer.  Their main goal is to produce as many steer calves that are desirable, as defined by the times, that they can.  They cross what's hot at the time.  In the beginning you had the British Breeds.  Then came the continentals usually crossed with Angus to produce a bigger, black calf.  At first we saw the Mines.  Then it was Chianina and Limousin.  Then the Maines popped back up.  They used to have to be black to win.  Now now with slick shows you're seeing Charolais, Simmental and Herefords in the south.  But here is where the problem arrises.  Not every calf that the club calf producer is going to be that good show steer.  And you have to take into consideration that half of those calves are going to be heifers.  What do you do with those?  This is where we've gone off track.  And I believe that is why there is so much discussion, negative and positive, in so many posts...

 

[aj]

I would disagree with you on the statement"pounds gained in the least amount of days". Interest rates(opportunity cost's) are low. If you can grow a calf at 50 cents per pound a gain(backgrounding)......it could be better than pushing a calf hard on corn and getting a cost of gain at a buck and a half. Although forage cost's are sky high also. Feedlots are operating in the red just to stay open right now. Some feedlots going bare minimum or shutting down.

 

[Cattle Cards]

I would disagree with you on the statement"pounds gained in the least amount of days". Interest rates(opportunity cost's) are low. If you can grow a calf at 50 cents per pound a gain(backgrounding)......it could be better than pushing a calf hard on corn and getting a cost of gain at a buck and a half. Although forage cost's are sky high also. Feedlots are operating in the red just to stay open right now. Some feedlots going bare minimum or shutting down.

I will have to admit, my example is simplistic, but understand, I was involved in the cattle industry back in the 70's and 80's when interest rates were high and cattle brought 72 cent/lb...

 

[frostback]

Not every calf that the club calf producer is going to be that good show steer.  And you have to take into consideration that half of those calves are going to be heifers.  What do you do with those?  This is where we've gone off track.  And I believe that is why there is so much discussion, negative and positive, in so many posts...
[/quote]

Does every bull born on a Purebred herd make a bull? Does every Purebred heifer make a cow? Pretty sure some of those go to the sale barn.  There are many clubby heifers that make great cows, they may need to be breed to different bulls sometimes then the F1s or purebreds though, but then you sometimes have to try a couple different bulls on the purebreds to figure out what clicks too.

 

[RyanChandler]

I would disagree with you on the statement"pounds gained in the least amount of days". Interest rates(opportunity cost's) are low. If you can grow a calf at 50 cents per pound a gain(backgrounding)......it could be better than pushing a calf hard on corn and getting a cost of gain at a buck and a half. Although forage cost's are sky high also. Feedlots are operating in the red just to stay open right now. Some feedlots going bare minimum or shutting down.

I think you're looking at it wrong.  When rates are low, turnover rates become even more important.  The faster you are able to reinvest your capital, the higher your annualized return will be.

 

[aj]

If you can get a buck fifty return off .50 $ input thats pretty good. If its costing you 1.50 $ to increase value 1.40 $ .....not a good return.

 

[Cow Chaser]

My self and my in-laws are breeding to make great heifers, we consider ourselves commercial cattle people, I run a small herd at my house while my in-laws have around a hundred head of cows at their place.  Most of our cattle are maines but we have serveral shorthorn and shorthorn influenced cattle also, with rest being crossbred cows.  We breed with mostly maine bulls but also use angus and shorthorn bulls, the maine bulls are mostly home raised but we buy a few from outside to keep outcross genetics in our herd, we have a few cows that would be considered donor material to most but we are currently not doing any any embyo work.  We A.I. a small portion of our cows with raising heifers in mind to show then make cows, every now and then we will throw a steer thats really nice, a couple years ago we raised a blue roan shorthorn plus out of a home raised shorthorn bull and a maine cow that was reserve shorthorn plus at Louisville.  So in our case I think commercial and show cattle can mix because of the fact we are breeding to make heifers and not steers.  We used to feed out most of our cattle and sell on the rail.  The last couple of years we have been selling as feeders due to high input cost.

 

[RyanChandler]

If you can get a buck fifty return off .50 $ input thats pretty good. If its costing you 1.50 $ to increase value 1.40 $ .....not a good return.

Are these accurate numbers?  You can't be hypothetical when analyzing investment alternatives.

 

[aj]

x-bar....the .50 cents deal may not be accurate. I weaned all my calves.....and ended up putting.  them out on cornstalks at .30 cents aday rent(my wire,posts, and water). IF I got a ppound gaineound aday.....and I think I was before it got cold I could figure a pound gain. Now I'm moving them to grain dust and round bales and they are green green green. I kicked out a couple more heifer replacement candidates cause they didn't hold up. Really with the high price of forage I don't know what a growing ration would cost in a feedlot? Grain is probably not all that cost un affective cause forage is so high. I do know feedlots are struggling to stay open.

 

[KSanburg]

Does every bull born on a Purebred herd make a bull? Does every Purebred heifer make a cow? Pretty sure some of those go to the sale barn.  There are many clubby heifers that make great cows, they may need to be breed to different bulls sometimes then the F1s or purebreds though, but then you sometimes have to try a couple different bulls on the purebreds to figure out what clicks too.

Not at my place, we start cutting calves at branding again at weaning and then through out the winter while on feed. If I start with 50 bull calves I might have 15 to 20 by the time I am happy about my sale prospects. But I do think there are places that do leave bulls that should have been cut, the ones that I always laughed about where the guys with 3 cows to eat their 5 acre pasture that the neighbors bull jumped the fence and bred and they end up selling the bull to the other neighbor and most of the time it is simply because they are black.

 

[Cattle Cards]

Does every bull born on a Purebred herd make a bull? Does every Purebred heifer make a cow? Pretty sure some of those go to the sale barn.  There are many clubby heifers that make great cows, they may need to be breed to different bulls sometimes then the F1s or purebreds though, but then you sometimes have to try a couple different bulls on the purebreds to figure out what clicks too.

Not at my place, we start cutting calves at branding again at weaning and then through out the winter while on feed. If I start with 50 bull calves I might have 15 to 20 by the time I am happy about my sale prospects. But I do think there are places that do leave bulls that should have been cut, the ones that I always laughed about where the guys with 3 cows to eat their 5 acre pasture that the neighbors bull jumped the fence and bred and they end up selling the bull to the other neighbor and most of the time it is simply because they are black.

A standard guideline in beef production is that you save the top 20% of your stock for replacement purposes with the understanding that a percentage of them will be culled at a later date.  I can see higher rates when you've been specializing and breeding for certain traits and have a good cow herd.  However, some producers save or sell heifers that should be culled just because they're by some hot bull even though the're out of a commercial (meaning unregistered/un-papered) cow with no performance or genetic defect records.  If you're going to keep and animal for reproductive purposes, (commercial, purebred or club calf) they better have the qualities you like and want to pass on. There are plenty of cattle that look good on paper that will never make it in the ring or should never reproduce...

 

[nate53]

There are many different types of commercial cattle operations.  There has to be with all the different environments.  Commercial in western Kansas might not be the same type of herd that is in Northeast Missouri, Florida, Texas, Canada, etc.  Environment and available feed stuffs (grass, grain, hay, twigs, sand, dust, etc.) are key in establishing what type of commercial animal is right for you.  Most commercial operations around here aren't just cattle operations, most row crop, some have pigs also.  Commercial is definitely unregistered around here.  Some sale feeders, some finish them out on grain that they raise.  Some sale  on the grid (carcass quality needed), some at the salebarn (lbs. rule especially with a black coat).  My treasure is another's trash.    

The next thread should be titled:  What is the definition of show cattle. ;D