When do you worry??

[firesweepranch]

OK, we are getting ready to have our 7th calf in 3 years (hey, we got a slow start - but have 6 due in the spring!). This is a heifer we bought in October, and her due date is Dec 31st. I called the breeder because as of a few days ago, she had no udder what so ever (our heifer due mid-January has a bigger bag!) and the only thing listed on her was an AI date.He said she did run with a bull, but the vet confirmed her to her AI date via ultrasound.
OK, I just figure the vet was wrong, like our heifer that calved late October (and was due September 30th confirmed via ultrasound). Tonight, doing my check, she has a little udder (size of an orange), no tightness, but she is obviously in labor RIGHT NOW! She has her tail cocked, keeps kicking at her belly, laying down and getting up, pushing, and "urinating" just a dribble every few minutes (I suspect it is her water). So, when do I get worried about not enough milk? If she does calf tonight, can the calf wait until morning to get to the vet for a check and colostrum? Not sure what to do here, I hate to intervene, but with mares sometimes their milk comes in AFTER they foaled. Do cows do this? Should I be worried? Some advice please???

 

[kanshow]

Get some powdered Colostrum..  We like Colostryx and keep it on hand thru calving season. 

 

[OH Breeder]

We have many heifers that the milk literally comes in while they are in the process of calving. We have had heifers bag up for a few weeks before hand. WIth heifers, I never leave them alone an til they calve. We take shifts and watch. After the water is broke I don't let them go for a long time before I check things out. If you get a calf and her milk hasn't completely come in you can always use Oxytocin. I am NOT A VET but this has been successfully for us in the past. Not sure if I helped at all.

 

[MCC]

I agree with OH Breeder, alot of times they will drop their milk after they calve but when we have one like this we give 10cc of Oxytocin and 10cc of Dexamethasone. You need to give the Oxytocin within 24 hours of calving.

 

[Sparty-On]

If you do decide to have a powdered colostrum on hand, I would not use the Colostrix 130.  It is a serum (blood) based colostrum and does not absorb as well as true colostrum.  I would recommend the Land O'Lakes Bovine Colostrum.  It is dried down cow colostrum and the only one with a USDA certification.  Get the good stuff that is going to work!

 

[farmin female]

Your #1 priority right now is to get a live calf out of that heifer and don't worry about the milk.  If the feet don't show soon, call a vet asap.  If you live in an area where there are any dairies, you may be able to buy frozen colostrum from them.  You can use the packaged products though.  Calf should suck as soon as possible because they will lose strength and vigor the longer without nourishment.  then it gets harder for them to nurse which leads to a nasty cycle with a calf that can't or wont suck and a heifer with no milk.  good luck and man I hate calving out heifers.

 

[Okotoks]

It doesn't sound like she is ready to be in labour but is. I would check her pretty quick to see what is up. Some heifers can fool around for a while but from what you have said I would be concerned. Good advise above on colostrum. We always like to milk one of the early calvers and freeze some so we have it on hand. I'm thinking you will have that calf by the time you read this. Good Luck!

Also on udder size we had one bull Circle M Ghost Rider 10G whose daughters bagged up last minute and always had high attached udders. They milked fine and some of them are coming 11 years and still have beautiful problem free udders. Most heifers seem to bag for quite awhile though.

 

[firesweepranch]

Well, thanks for the help. he broke her water at about 5:30 PM, I went and got some frozen colostrum from the dairy down the road "just in case", and after talking with the breeder decided that when the calf was born, we would let it suckle until it got tired and then try to get it to drink from a bottle (or tube it if necessary). So, she pushed and pushed until about 6:30, when we decided to check out what was taking so long (we sat in the warm car watching her the entire time). One foot over the pelvis with the head, the other foot right at the pelvis ring (about wrist deep). We tried to get a rope around both feet, but it was soo tight and small we could not. After struggling for what seemed like eternity, we decided to pull just the one leg to see if it made room for the other. Had the vet out by 8:30, at which he did some magic, and after 20 minutes of him struggling he pulled a dead bull calf that was at least 100 pounds! Now the cow will not (or can not) get up. He put some bolus's in her and gave her Oxytocin, lutalyse, Dex something (can not read his writing!).  So, we put water in front of her and some hay, and she tried to scramble away on her front feet. Oh, and the vet confirmed that her front quarters were empty, and just a squirt he could get out of her rear quarters...
So now what? We have owned her for 60 days and bought her to use as a recip that we could AI if she did not take an embryo. Should we expect the breeder to replace or refund? I am on foreign ground here, and since this is only our 7th calf we have ever had, not sure what to do.
My daughter is in tears, only because she did not like the idea of cutting him out (that was some of the discussion), and she likes this heifer. This cow business is hard sometimes  

 

[Earthmover]

Can you tell us what she was AI'd too. Since you have had her for 2 months what have you been feeding her? Also what is her pedigree.

 

[zak]

That's a big part. What she was bred to, and what have you been feeding her. For a first calf heifer she should be getting little to eat, and absolutely no grain the last 1/3 of the preg.

Let us no



Zak

 

[firesweepranch]

She is Simmental, by Brooks Above Par and a KSU miss too black cow, 23 months old. She was bred to RCR Stetson who is a calving ease bull (EPD 20.1 CE). She has been in front pasture that we use for calving, on hay (which was just tested at 13% protein and 58 TDN - it is a fescue clover mix). Every day we gave her less than a pound of grain to get her up so we can check her. We do that with all of our girls (we have 6 more due in Spring - you can bet they are getting NO GRAIN from now on!). The grain she got was the mix that AAOK recommended here on Steer Planet. She has free access to Vitafirm mineral. So would that little of grain affect the birth weight on a calf? Mind you, this is only our 7th calf, but we feed all our animals with just a small amount every night to get them up so we can check them all. IIRC, it takes 4 to 5 pounds of grain for one pound of gain, so in my little brain that computed to no real gain for the heifer. I guess I was wrong, but how come this heifer was the only one that has had a huge calf??
I looked in one her this morning, and she has wiggled around a bit I guess trying to get up. How long do they stay down after something like this?

 

[LostFarmer]

If you are looking for a recip, I would cut the losses and ship her.  A recip has to be able to have a big calf and have milk she has shown she can't do either. 

I feed my calvey cows a 1/2 mile from water.  That forces them to exercise.  Sometimes it just happens as well.  LF

 

[advocate]

The above par in her breeding was the problem very large bws and no milk in my experience and no it isn't the breeders fault stuff happens get rid of her and cutr your losses. Well after she gets up probably a pinched nerve we have had several they can take a few hours or a few days we had one that took over a month to finally get back up.

 

[chambero]

No refund.  That's cow business.  Calving out heifers is the hardest part of it.  It's highly unlikely a heifer like that is actually too small.  Second calf will likely go fine

 

[CAB]

For the next one that has an abnormal presentation like this one did, you need to try to push the calf back as far as possible while @ the same time using your other arm to go in and find the down hoof. Take your hand and let the hoof set in your palm while pulling it upwards. Doing it this way will prevent your cow from tearing her uterus. The next time also, it is better to be aggressively cking rather than waiting. By your post alone, you had a feeling that things weren't exactly going normal. I made the comment to my son that I thought it was a breech by your description as DL felt it also by your own diagnosis. You may want to ck in with your vet today about any follow up shots. I would think that possibly another anti inflammatory shot and banamine maybe needed. It's been my experience, that if they are not able to get up in about a weeks time, that the prognosis is not good. They seem to become more depressed as more time goes by. Good luck, you're learning as you go.  We all have had our loses and will have more.

 

[LostFarmer]

My experience with down cows is that they need to stand.  I have a sling that we put on them and using a front end loader stand them up.  It helps to get them on their feet and the blood moving.  In my experience they have about a week and then they usually never get up.  We had a holstien heifer that had a huge calf one not get up for a month one time.  I told dad that if she would keep trying I would.  I hauled water and feed to her for that month and lifted her twice a day.  She gradually got so she would stand and then walk with me in the loader.  One day I went out and she was up.  So it can happen, but getting her on her feet sooner is better. 

 

[kanshow]

I agree with getting her up.  Also she needs something to relieve pain & reduce swelling.  She probably needs an antibiotic too.     

I think if you rememberthe feeling of no space ..  in the future you may opt for a c-section. 

 

[farmin female]

Sorry about the stiuation but you live and learn.  Heifers are a pain.  Most people dont want to waste that first calf, but its much better than losing both a calf and cow.  Breed heifers to an angus bull or even a lowline - get a live calf and let the heifer deliver it.  When they start kicking their bellys for any length of time, its not a good sign usually.  Also, once the water has broke, its time to deliver a calf.  Very much like a woman in labor.  Dont be afraid to slide your arm in there and feel for those front feet.  Its part of the business and its a tough business no matter club calves or commercial.  Hang in there, you only have 6 more to go!

 

[coachmac]

Sorry about the calf Kris.  Hope the heifer ends up on her feet pretty soon. 

 

[firesweepranch]

Thanks Shawn, and everyone else. Like several said, use this as a learning experience. The heifer ate a good amount of grain this morning (about 6 pounds) and some hay, and drank a little. She also moved quite a bit. I think it is her back left leg that is not functioning properly, she always seems to be sitting on it. She sits up on her left side, with her left leg running under her. She is bright and alert. The vet did give her a cortisone to reduce the swelling on her nerves, how long does that last? If and when she does get up, she will be shipped. Even with her calving problems, I am more concerned about her lack of milk (still no milk this morning).
I would not consider the presentation of her calf abnormal, because both feet were present; one was just further back because the shoulder area of the calf could not pop through without considerable force.  We did not have a calf jack, and just used ropes and a come along to try to pull, but all that did was drag the cow several inches.
So, how many of you own a calf puller or calf jack, and what kind do you recommend? I plan on purchasing one before the next calf is due at the end of January (of course, of our 6 due 5 are heifers since our herd is so young). I used this several times YEARS ago when I worked on a dairy (like more than 20 years), with the assistance of a vet, so I am familiar with it; I just never thought I would need one in my supply list!
Let me tell you, the biggest feeling of panic is when you have a situation like that, and no one answers your calls for help! Hubby was at work (45 minutes away), vet was not on call that night (no emergency services), dairy friend down the road not answering calls (the one we got the colostrum from earlier), Charolais breeder friend down the road not answering calls... can strike panic. I had to call a vet we never use to get someone out to help me. I could have gotten that calf out a little sooner if I had a calf jack....