when will the show industry start to reflect the production side?

[steerjock07]

After attending a show this weekend, and doing some thinking, what I used to alway think became an evident fact. The show industry seems to be heading in the wrong direction for economically raising cattle. I saw a heifer class where there were three pretty good heifers in the top end, which were all papered as early march, and yet they were three totally different sizes. 1st was a heifer who most would consider pretty big for a march, 2nd was probably 6 inches taller (looking to be a near 1700+ lb mature cow) and 3rd was a more moderate framed heifer who out of the three looked to be the best sized (1200-1400 lb mature weight) to be economical in terms of feeding her at a mature age and raising calves that finish out at the right size as well. This was also about the same size as the other 4 in class. And when seeing these heifers, it hit me that the likely hood of the top 2 heifers being March's was probably not likely. So I came up with this, Why dont we have heifers show by breed and hip height instead of breed and age? Doesn't this idea make more sense? I mean how many prople can afford to have herd of 1700 lb cows? Count me out! If you think about it, the only time an age really matters on heifers is upon the first breeding, a Janurary can usually be bred alot sooner than a May. After a heifer has her first calf, what does her birthday really matter? Plus a more moderate framed march, usually cant beat one that is 6 inches taller, regardless of how good she is, and to back this up the only thing the judge said bad about the 3rd place heifer was "i dont like the shape of her head, as it is not feminine enough." Really ? does that sound like a legit enough reason to put a super complete female in 3rd or was she just not big enough but the judge knew that wasnt a good reason at all? Switching to the steer side, Why don't we start showing all steers at preview shows and state fairs by weight alone like they do at the major shows like NAILE and the American Royal and Ft. worth? Doesn't this make more sense? In the end, all steers end up at the same place for the same reason, and that is to feed the world. Now I realize there can be some breed differences with marbling and tenderness of meat and such, but lets be honest, a good steer is a good steer and breed and color shouldnt matter. The best should win regardless, and it just seems more fair and logical to show steers by weight and weight alone.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I read that twice and enjoyed it both times. Careful about saying a 1700 lb cow cost mor to feed. That will kick the hornets nest but I agree. Thanks for that good common sense approach. You may have something there.

 

[knabe]

How many commercial cattle judges are there?

 

[simmyman67]

I completely agree!!! Great post.

 

[Mill Iron A]

What do you mean by that knabe?

 

[kfacres]

never, b/c that's now how it is, or ever has been.. change is virtually impossible..

even though I agree- and have preached it for many years.



by hip height- over aging will still be possible.. just get something a little older- and more mature to win...

 

[JSchroeder]

It's February so it's time for mid-westerners to make the argument that all show steers should look the same.

Why don't we start showing all steers at preview shows and state fairs by weight alone like they do at the major shows like NAILE and the American Royal and Ft. worth?

They don't do that at Ft Worth, they have Angus, Hereford, Polled Hereford, Shorthorn, and ABC classes that make up about 40% of the show.  That point also contradicts your previous point about being more like the real world in at least two very straight forward ways.

First, everything that goes through an auction barn is split by color and breed character.  Even carcasses that yield and grade exactly the same will be worth more/less depending on whether they had black hides and/or showed Brahman influence.

Secondly, throwing out all of the breeds would take shows further into the realm of clubby steers.  The only way a calf that doesn't have that stereotypical clubby look has a shot at doing well in a market steer show is under a system where it's shown in a breed.  I realize you're probably up north but nothing could take shows further away from the real world in the south than to eliminate the American classes.

 

[leanbeef]

I respect the fact that you see the difference between how cattle get lined up in a show ring and how you see them perform in the pasture. The truth is, though, as long as people have opinions and as long as they're not all the same, we'll have issues like this to deal with. The show ring should be a place where we can promote our cattle and learn about quality. I agree it isn't always practical, but that depends on who's on the microphone. I have judged some shows, and I'm not afraid to use smaller framed cattle and say I'm using them because they are smaller framed. But judging isn't always as easy as we want to make it out from the sidelines...you don't always have an ideal one to use, so you have to find the one that suits you the closest of the group. The small county junior shows are the hardest to judge...sometimes it's a lesser of the evils! My favorite shows have been Ft. Worth and Tulsa State Fair where there were good cattle to start the class and plenty in a class to talk about and sort through. I do like clean made cattle, but I'd opt for a loose made, sound one with a little front end over a tight-throated, big-butted "clubby" looking female in a breeding class every time. It's just one man's opinion of that group of cattle on that particular day. And everybody will never agree. Ideally, yes...they should all be sound and have plenty of volume and muscle and why not pretty to look at? It's just not always that straightforward. And I think a lot of judges get influenced by politics and promotion and expectations...they're only human. I don't think we have a lot of real world breeders who do a lot of judging...I may be wrong. That doesn't mean all show winners are bad cattle or that good production cattle can't win a show somewhere. It happens...

 

[rackranch]

I think this falls back to the judges for picking the heifers that are obviously more mature than their given class breaks.  As long as they are picking them to win or be at the top of the classes then it's going to continue.  I'll never forget the first time my daughter took a Shorthorn heifer to a major.  There was a heifer bagging up in the junior heifer class.

I think you make two points here. First, the 1700lb heifer is not industry standard and should not be picked to win the class.  And I agree, I hope that was not the size the judge picked through out the show but was specific to the class you watched.  Secondly, the standards that are excepted when classing steers and heifers.  As I stated, with the heifers, I think the judges are going to have to be the one to start putting these over mature heifers to the back of the classes and start making an example of them.  Personally,  I think it is killing the number of good kids and good families that participate in the heifers shows.  Once they go to the show and see whats going on they are less likely to come back.  If the game is to cheat or get buried in your class, most parents are going to teach their kids ethics and morals.  

As for the steers, I like the way its done in Ft. Worth but as I stated on a previous post, I think the kid that owns the steer or a kid from their county should be the one to lead the steers through classification.  Letting the breeders and steer jocks lead them through should be an embarrassment to the stock show.

 

[vc]

I agree on the heifer deal to a point, they should be pretty but functional, and age seems to always be an issue.

On the steers, most shows I have been to all the class champions compete for their division, and then all the division chapions compete for grand, so in all reality the best steers should win. If you just showed them by weight, there are quite a few breed that would seldom win their class let alone make champion drive. Lets a few get a piece of the pie instead of just one.

For a steer to be the best steer at the show, It would need to be born at 80 pounds unassisted, have an ADG of around 3.7+ a conversion ratio of 6-1 finish out at 1300 pounds at a year old and grade high choice or prime. That would be the perfect steer, for the commercial guy. Show would be pretty boring though.

I bet if you got a commercial guy to judge, someone would still have a problem with his choices at some point.

Take a hog show, the judge will talk up a pig on how "this pig is what the industry wants", when we all know, they want them to tip the scales at 240 just as fast as they can and on as little feed as they can. Most show pigs monthly diet cost as much as the feed fed to a commercial pig for it's entire life.

 

[steerjock07]

I agree with saying the best should win regardless of size, but this is starting to fall through lately . In the class example I gave , I don't want to say the third place heifer was flawless, cause that would be a lie , but he didn't fault her in his critique except for saying he didn't like the shape of her head . She was a heifer that was exceptionally good in all aspects and most any producer would love to have for either show cattle production or market animals. Where as the second place heifer wasn't better in any area necessarily except for her 6 inch added height, and she was just an abnormally big march. I talked to many other people that day and they totally agreed that the third place heifer was misplaced , especially based on the judges comments . Where as if they were all within an inch or two of size , he would have definitely went with the third place calf to win! Showing them by hip height and breed eliminates the need for people to fake ages because they simply wouldn't matter. And on the steers , most of the time u can put your money on a few breeds for top 5 overall, and others don't even get looked at . For instance , at most shows you can put your money on crossbred champion and reserve , chi , simmental , shorthorn, Maine , and charolais . Other than those breeds, you hardly ever see an Angus or hereford or other small breeds win a show , so showing them by weight alone won't make a difference in what appears in the top end

 

[JSchroeder]

steerjock07, there's a lot more to the shows than finishing in the top five.

 

[vc]

Most people showing an Angus, Hereford, or other pure bred are there to win their division, if they won the show that would be icing on the cake.
there are those that spend a tone of money to win it all others who do not have the resources can try and compete in the divisions and still have fun. It is funner to say I had the Champion English Steer than I finished 4 in my class behind the 3 crossbreds.
This weekend the biggest jackpot in our state will be going on, when the boys where still showing we went to it every year, not with the expectations of winning it all we wanted to do well in our classes and see how they stacked up against the high dollar steers bound for State, Denver, Arizona and Kansas. We finished it the top half and right behind those calves quite a few times, and felt like we were successful. I know others who took pure breds and their goal was to win their division, they had no preconceived notion of winning the whole thing. Divisions are good for the kids and good for the breeders, and since it is all about the kids, right, I think it should stay that way.

I am going to bet that most do not look at the banners when they go to buy a breeding animal, you look at the animal, their pedagree, and their numbers, not their banners, There are allot of terminal bred heifers with purple banners over their stalls.

 

[twistedhshowstock]

There are a lot of sides to be considered here.  Yes people lie about ages and they always will, that can affect the outcome of a class but that really only helps the heifer when she is younger.  By the time she is showing for her 2nd yr most heifers are getting really close to their mature age so it really wouldnt give her that much of an advantage in my opinion.  In my opinion a good heifer is a good heifer, size doesnt really affect me that much, but I will fault ones that are to big or to small for their age.  That brings me to a problem with showing by hip height instead of age.  You were talking about a heifer winning that in your opinion was to big for the industry based on how big she was at that age.  I agree there are cattle out there that are to big to be practical and there are also cattle that are to small to be practical.  If you are showing by hip height alone a lot of those impractical cattle will actually do better because we wont know their age we will just know how tall they are.  So she may be way to big for her age, but the judge wont know that so he has to assume she is close in age to the other cattle in her class.  Same goes the other way, that heifer that is just to compact to compete ussually will do better, she will just continue to win the smaller end classes even as a 2 yr old.  We will have no way to evaluate performance or production because we will not know the age of the heifers.  So I see more potential damage with that system than the one we currently show in.
As for the steer thing.  Splitting the breeds does not affect the best steer winning. All of the breed champions still go up against one another for Grand Champion so the best steer still wins. Again there are also other factors that influence a shows decision to split breeds or show just by weight.  In Texas for example part of the reason is the sheer number of steers that show up.  Its mainly just a system for breaking the masses into smaller groups that are easier for the judges to evaluate.  I mean when you consider that they split by weight AND breed for the classes and many classes will still have more than 50 head in them, imagine how big the classes would be if they didnt do that.  Another reason for it is like you said.  There are about 5 or 6 breeds that you can pretty much always guarantee will always be in the hunt for the Grand Champion title .  Many of those breed champions  that end up in the Champion Drive at shows like Houston are never really in contention.  But that means that the biggest money is going to be spent on those 5 particular breeds and there are many families that show that cant afford that.  So they make the decision to show one of the less competitive breeds and give themselves a chance to get a small piece of something rather than never being able to  affard to be competitive at all. But regardless whether you show steers by weight alone or by weight and breed, I dont see how at all it would affect the outcome of the show.

 

[hamburgman]

VC, where are you from that 240 lb fat hogs are sold?  I come from the hog dense area in the US and 240 lbs is a serious lightweight, you would be docked some serious cash for that pig.  Lots of 300+ pigs are sold, our window however is 270-290, with 280 being ideal for us. 

 

[Shorthorns4us]

my response to your title: "When will the show industry start to reflect the production side?"

It never will.  I have watched a Red Angus heifer show at the ISF  that probably came the closest I have ever seen in my life to where the judge was picking heifers that you could take home and simply turn out and forget.

JMHO
EF

 

[hamburgman]

Part of me doesn't see why the show industry has to follow the commercial industry.  Its a show, how many other competitive shows that you know of are based on realistic non-specialized conditions? Car shows are over the top, electronic shows, I think the livestock show industry is just out to push the envelope.  Swine definitely went overboard with the leanness issue for a while, but right now most show hogs aren't terribly far from quality hogs the industry wants.  The show industry also seems to have its own limitations.  When the types of animals being picked are horrible breeders, don't last, and require full feed 24 7 just to stay in shape then  fewer people are in the industry and participation suffers.  JMO

 

[steerjock07]

it doesn't have to follow the commercial industry to a T, however, we must remember that for the large majority of people who show cattle, especially heifers, there is a desired end point to a show animals career, whether that is freezer beef from a steer or a cow from a heifer. It just seems to me that the heifer side of things especially is being challenged in the ring and affecting the production side of things for people who desire to produce cattle. I saw a post on here a while back asking why people in this industry keep breeding to TH and PHA carriers. Uh hello, thats all that seems to win in the show ring! More times than not, a terminally bred heifer will hardly ever amount to a maternal mother. The reflection of the show ring is a large contributer to most of these diseases within these cattle.

 

[shortdawg]

Answer to your question - never ! That topic has been debated on here since SP's birth and they will always be two different industries. I like the idea about the heifers as that would level the playing field IMO. As for the steers, I like the breed deal better b/c it gives more kids a chance at success and this thing really is about the kids .............

 

[vc]

No commercial hog offits any where near here just show pigs, 20+ dollar bags of feed, umpteen different supplements, As far as weight not been in the hog deal for 7years and yes we always were holding them to keep them under 280 for the show. Did have a gilt we bred, born on 1/21 and hit 200 pounds 5/1 with 58 days to go to the fair, was she a joy.She hit the scales at 283, just lost too much power, won her class and that was it. She would have been perfect a month earlier.