Why won't a Judge use a 1,425 pound steer at a Major?

[Tallcool1]

A couple days ago cowboyway started the thread below, and it led to some really interesting and GOOD input from lots of members regarding "actual or natural" weight of steers as opposed to their "shown at" weight.

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/mike-zamudio-az-judge-what's-his-style-likes-dislikes/

Many of us have seen the Grand Champion that weighed in (or weigh carded in) at 1,350. If you add 5%, you have about a 1,425 pound steer....give or take a few pounds. 

As knabe pointed out (in a roundabout way), it's the same steer at 1,350 as it is at 1,420, because they don't weigh them on the way into the ring.

If the actual beef industry (packing houses) consider 1,425 pound live weights to be desirable, why won't major steer show judges use one?  Why are exhibitors forced to shrink these steers back, or fill them up, just to be in contention?  Why can't the judge just represent the industry and slap the best one regardless of weight? 

 

[knabe]

maybe judges don't see enough steers go to the kill floor and see the corresponding carcass on the rail.

 

[Mill Iron A]

I have never judged a major show but I often judge county fairs and 1425 wouldnt bother me a bit if that os thebest calf there. Had a buddy judge a show and get criticized for not using a 1680 lb steer. Its true even with the 1000 lb carcass ding (if you even get hit with it) this calf xould be the most profitable carcass but I dont know thats awfully big...

 

[justintime]

This is a topic that has bothered me for a long while. The packing industry loves steers that weigh 1425, and I think the owners of steers this size do as well, when they receive the sale proceeds.

I judged a local steer show a few years ago and the best steer in the show by far, IMO, was a steer that weighed 1410 lbs. I mean there was not another steer in the show that was even close as good. I had no problems with using this steer for the Champion, but I received several complaints after the show , that I had selected a steer that was " too big" as my Champion. I would do the same thing again... and 100 times again. Here in Canada, our packers are slowly raising the carcass weight breaks and a steer weighing 1450-1550 can achieve the highest price on any given day. I know that steer shows are far removed from real world realities, but this is one area where they could regain some relevance.

 

[Freddy]

Same reason that there are some real good steers with out any hair competing or much hair ,unless there is very little competition these steers not in the zone
for "Show Steers " won't make it .  Judge has to have in mind what is ideal and try to stick to this or I don't think you would like the results of jumping all over ....

As one guy told me yesterday this is a steer show , not the "  Ideal steer  to raise  for carcass market "  and IMO i'm not sure in the commercial market that those
1500-1600 steers are the most profitable steers for the commercial man to raise ....No body is paying much attention to the cost of keeping those great big cows to
produce those size steers .....Definitely depends on your environment ,but we live where corn and extra feed is not easily available ....Last year you spent a lot of money
trying to feed them....

 

[Mill Iron A]

For our scenario I definately see what you are saying Freddy, in fact we have centered out operation around not feeding hay and calving on grass just to reduce feeding costs.  However, I know many areas are different and many operations have different resources and I feel like when I am judging I am there to keep phenotype in line and let the individual producer decide how big the cattle on their operation need to be.  But to stay in line with what you are saying marketing these days is almost a joke in the commercial deal, sure you need to get up to a certain level but after that making profit is all about reducing costs.

 

[Tallcool1]

This is a post that I pulled across from the other thread...where this all started.  NOTICE THE STATES THAT THESE RESULTS ARE TAKEN FROM.  Maybe feed availability is different everywhere...maybe the cost of "keeping these cows" is noteworthy...this is REAL WORLD DATA! 


We look at "trends" in the show ring, and what we are trying to accomplish with these terminal crosses.  I certainly like the way that these cattle can pack on the pounds.  But why can't the end result be allowed to follow suit with what is considered desirable in the packing house?


St. Joseph, MO    Mon Aug 12, 2013    USDA Market News Service

5 AREA WEEKLY WEIGHTED AVERAGE DIRECT SLAUGHTER CATTLE
Texas/Oklahoma/New Mexico; Kansas; Nebraska; Colorado; Iowa/Minnesota feedlots
(Includes all transactions regardless of delivery day)
For: Week Ending Sunday, 8/11/2013


                            Head        Weight            Price              Avg      Wtd Avg
                            count        Range            Range            Weight    Price
STEERS
Over 80% Choice      9,403    1,250-1,500    122.00-125.00  1,426    123.44
  65 - 80% Choice      6,660    1,225-1,490    120.00-124.00  1,399    122.68
  35 - 65% Choice      8,245    1,204-1,450    120.00-124.00  1,346    121.14
    0 - 35% Choice                    -              -
    Total all grades    24,308    1,204-1,500    120.00-125.00  1,391    122.45

So...the steers in the Over 80% Choice group had an average live weight of 1,426 pounds, with none exceeding 1,500 pounds....and so on down the chart.

So the steers most likely to grade are the steers that fall into the heavier weight ranges, and keep in mind that these weights are AFTER a trailer ride to the packing house.  I believe a 2% shrink is fairly reasonable if not conservative to say the least.

When was the last time a 1,425 pound steer won a state fair or major show?  Can't use him...he's too big!  Too big for what...the industry?

 

[DLD]

I think most judges are aware that many (or most) of the good steers showing at 1340 will weigh 1400+ at natural fill.  If you're using that logic, then you have to expect the one's showing at 1425 to weigh 1500.  Gotta draw a line somewhere.

 

[obie105]

I know our close by plant will not kill them over 1600. They get shipped back. They also have to walk under a bar right off the scale and if they touch it they are too tall. The height isn't too big of a deal with most colored cattle but its a big deal with Holsteins.

 

[knabe]

If carcasses are too big/long they will drag on the floor

Do the places that reject them also kill mature cows and bulls?

 

[hamburgman]

The packing houses that I have been in don't kill mature cows or bulls.  They have their own packing houses spread across the country. 

This issue has bothered me for pry 5 years now.  Seen lots of good calves be shunned because of size.  How can a 1,100 pound steer beat a 1450 pound steer with the only reason being the latter is to big? 

I wonder if this weight issue is a cop out for some judges.  There also seems to be an age group of people who just can't stand steers or heifers above 1350.  There are some plants that take carcasses over 1500 consistently, but not every critter has the frame for it from what I have seen.

 

[Okotoks]

This is a post that I pulled across from the other thread...where this all started.  NOTICE THE STATES THAT THESE RESULTS ARE TAKEN FROM.  Maybe feed availability is different everywhere...maybe the cost of "keeping these cows" is noteworthy...this is REAL WORLD DATA! 


We look at "trends" in the show ring, and what we are trying to accomplish with these terminal crosses.  I certainly like the way that these cattle can pack on the pounds.  But why can't the end result be allowed to follow suit with what is considered desirable in the packing house?


St. Joseph, MO    Mon Aug 12, 2013    USDA Market News Service

5 AREA WEEKLY WEIGHTED AVERAGE DIRECT SLAUGHTER CATTLE
Texas/Oklahoma/New Mexico; Kansas; Nebraska; Colorado; Iowa/Minnesota feedlots
(Includes all transactions regardless of delivery day)
For: Week Ending Sunday, 8/11/2013


                            Head        Weight            Price              Avg      Wtd Avg
                            count        Range            Range            Weight    Price
STEERS
Over 80% Choice      9,403    1,250-1,500    122.00-125.00  1,426    123.44
  65 - 80% Choice      6,660    1,225-1,490    120.00-124.00  1,399    122.68
  35 - 65% Choice      8,245    1,204-1,450    120.00-124.00  1,346    121.14
    0 - 35% Choice                    -              -
    Total all grades    24,308    1,204-1,500    120.00-125.00  1,391    122.45

So...the steers in the Over 80% Choice group had an average live weight of 1,426 pounds, with none exceeding 1,500 pounds....and so on down the chart.

So the steers most likely to grade are the steers that fall into the heavier weight ranges, and keep in mind that these weights are AFTER a trailer ride to the packing house.  I believe a 2% shrink is fairly reasonable if not conservative to say the least.

When was the last time a 1,425 pound steer won a state fair or major show?  Can't use him...he's too big!  Too big for what...the industry?

This is good information. As Knabe points out the size limit at some plants is determined by the height of the hooks. If the industry has moved to larger carcass sizes the show ring should follow. I read where as the cattle numbers drop the carcass sizes will need to increase. Of course the carcass size that works for the packers may not correlate to the sizes that work in the cow herds or feedlot.

 

[obie105]

If carcasses are too big/long they will drag on the floor

Do the places that reject them also kill mature cows and bulls?

Yes. They will drag or put undue stress on the rail. Tyson is who does it in my area. The big ones that are rejected are either sent to a kill cow plant and owner pays shipping and takes the dock or they can be hauled o a nearby sale barn and ran thru for them. Yes, there are places that like the big ones but not all places do.

 

[knabe]

If carcasses are too big/long they will drag on the floor

Do the places that reject them also kill mature cows and bulls?

 

[Tallcool1]

This is a post that I pulled across from the other thread...where this all started.  NOTICE THE STATES THAT THESE RESULTS ARE TAKEN FROM.  Maybe feed availability is different everywhere...maybe the cost of "keeping these cows" is noteworthy...this is REAL WORLD DATA! 


We look at "trends" in the show ring, and what we are trying to accomplish with these terminal crosses.  I certainly like the way that these cattle can pack on the pounds.  But why can't the end result be allowed to follow suit with what is considered desirable in the packing house?


St. Joseph, MO    Mon Aug 12, 2013    USDA Market News Service

5 AREA WEEKLY WEIGHTED AVERAGE DIRECT SLAUGHTER CATTLE
Texas/Oklahoma/New Mexico; Kansas; Nebraska; Colorado; Iowa/Minnesota feedlots
(Includes all transactions regardless of delivery day)
For: Week Ending Sunday, 8/11/2013


                            Head        Weight            Price              Avg      Wtd Avg
                            count        Range            Range            Weight    Price
STEERS
Over 80% Choice      9,403    1,250-1,500    122.00-125.00  1,426    123.44
  65 - 80% Choice      6,660    1,225-1,490    120.00-124.00  1,399    122.68
  35 - 65% Choice      8,245    1,204-1,450    120.00-124.00  1,346    121.14
    0 - 35% Choice                    -              -
    Total all grades    24,308    1,204-1,500    120.00-125.00  1,391    122.45

So...the steers in the Over 80% Choice group had an average live weight of 1,426 pounds, with none exceeding 1,500 pounds....and so on down the chart.

So the steers most likely to grade are the steers that fall into the heavier weight ranges, and keep in mind that these weights are AFTER a trailer ride to the packing house.  I believe a 2% shrink is fairly reasonable if not conservative to say the least.

When was the last time a 1,425 pound steer won a state fair or major show?  Can't use him...he's too big!  Too big for what...the industry?

I understand what everyone is saying about "docking" cattle that are too heavy...but LOOK AT THE DATA. 

In the 80% or more Grading Choice category, the steers ranged in weight from 1250-1500 pounds, with an average of 1426 pounds.  None exceeded 1500 pounds. 

Coincidentally, there were MORE cattle offered in this weight range than any other...which to me means that it makes sense to the producer or they would ship them sooner. 

There was no "docking" in this weight range...quite the contrary.  The packer paid a premium for steers in this weight range. 

This data contradicts the theory that packing houses don't like these cattle.

Now, the point that the packing house doesn't like cattle dragging through the kill floor is legitimate.  The packing house doesn't like a 60" tall steer is perhaps a legitimate statement.  This is not the steer I am talking about.

DLD makes a good point about the ASSUMPTION that judges make regarding good steers being weighed in on about a 5% shrink.  Do they really?  Does a judge really second guess the scale when they are judging the class?  I say YES THEY DO!  So, with that in mind, let's say that little Johnny has to FILL the ever living life out of his steer just to get a sniff of 1285 pounds.  Does the same judge talk that steer like a 1285 pounder til the sound of the slap in the final drive, or does he use the same assumptive reasoning and look at him like the 1250 pounder that he is?  It's a double standard!  The 1425 pounder is really a whale...but that nice little 1285 pounder is showing at EXACTLY his natural and full weight.  DLD, that is not an attack on you.  Your point is valid.

PERHAPS we need to weigh them in (or turn in weight cards) the morning of the show (with a 3% not 5% weigh back) so that the judges don't have to spend so much time mentally "re-weighing" these steers, and will be able to focus on just finding the best one. 

All I know for a fact...is that my friends that feed large quantities of cattle tell me that they would go broke shipping 1300 pound fat cattle.  The money makers are the 1450 pounders.  And it just seems wrong to me that an "industry expert" livestock judge will not use one of those in the show ring.

 

[Freddy]

Your talking about two totally different ways to market cattle and when people figure that out it will be a lot simpler ......For an example there is Performance horses ,show horses and etc.

 

[Telos]

I think one should think about maximum profit when looking at ideals.

Cost of getting to the bigger weights become very expensive with poorer conversion the longer their on feed.

I also think carcass contests are similar to live evaluations. It's strictly a numbers game with carcass evaluation and does not really tell you if it was the most profitable or even the most desireable for the majority of consumers.

We need to look at the input cost on these animals. It is naive to bolst about these good carcass numbers without knowing what the cost was to get them there.

 

[DLD]

Fact is that as cow numbers go down, carcass weight is going up.  Packers need more pounds of beef, and if they can't get there with more head, they have to get there with more pounds per head.  I don't think we need to be looking at 1600+ lb slaughter weights as a norm, but there's nothing wrong with 1450, and it's apparent that the packers think so, too. 

Telos makes a good point about efficiency decreasing beyond a certain point.  That point is going to vary from one group of cattle to the next, as illustrated by the 1250 - 1500 lb weight range in the market report. 

I understand that Tallcool1 is saying that everything would be simpler if we showed steers at more honest weights, and I can agree with that.  Like he said, we're adding to a judges job by asking them to look beyond what's on the card to evaluate what they think a steer really weighs.  While for the most part, what they need to be doing is evaluating the steers market readiness, regardless of weight.  That means opening up the boundaries of that window...

Who wants to be the first judge in the 21st century to use a 1400#+ steer to win a major?  I don't believe it's happened yet...

 

[Freddy]

The way these steer's are handled there has already been 1400+ steer's winning the major's ....

 

[knabe]

The way these steer's are handled there has already been 1400+ steer's winning the major's ....

exactly my point.