Wolf Willow Major Leroy 1M calves

[jnm]

I'd like to hear from anyone who has had or familiar with calves sired by Major Leroy. Last year in the Cattle Vision catalog, he was listed with a BEPD of 2.1. I happened to recently check the ASA website and see that the BEPD is now listed as 5.2. I have some calves due in March. What should I expect size wise and calving ease. Fortunately I didn't breed any heifers to him but still would like to know if I need to be ready to assist.

 

[Doc]

The owner of Leroy is JIT on here. He may be in Denver right now , but I'm sure he will respond & respond honestly on what to expect.I've not heard him say anything about big calves. I wouldn't worry too much about BEPD on the ASA website unfortunately, because if you went by them we could breeding all our hfrs to CF Solution.

 

[justintime]

I just noticed this thread now, which will explain my delay in responding to it.

First I will say that I have completely abandoned most of the EPDs that are being generated right now by the ASA, especially those that are being generated on Canadian cattle. Something really goofy is going on, and I think Greg Reuhle may have been right when he told me that he thought that part of the EPD database was lost when the change was made to Colorado State producing the numbers. Whatever happened, I hope someone gets busy and figures this mess out soon. Right now I would put more faith in my guessing at the EPD rather than the numbers that are being shown.

That said, I will try to tell you what I know about Major Leroy.

We will be having our third calf crop from Major Leroy this spring( 09). The 2007 crop was fairly small as we sold the world rights to Semex and they wanted him collected fairly early in the breeding season. Leroy is a tremendous semen producer. Our deal with Semex was that we were to get paid when he had successfully froze 1000 straws of semen. He froze almost 1100 straws the first day he was collected.

I have always told people who ask about him that I do not consider Leroy to be a so called " heifer bull". I know some breeders who have used him on heifers and no one has called me screaming about my bull killing their heifers.We have used him on a bunch of females that have had at least one previous calf, and in two years we have not assisted any except for one backwards and one with a foot back. You will occasionally get a big calf from a cow with some birth weight issues in her make- up, but so far I have not had to assist any of them. That is in my herd. You may have different results. I would also say that Semex has marketed him for two years now, in over 100 countries, and I have had some good reports from around the world. I have not had anyone comment on birth issues. He is now the highest semen selling Shorthorn bull for Semex and he has really been accepted well in countries like Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Argentina and Russia. Semex told me that they sold more Leroy semen in Brazil,last year, than all the other Shorthorn bulls prior to him did in total.
The Dunbeacon herd in Australia, ( who produced Dunbeacon Venture) decided that they wanted to " sample" Leroy in their herd so they purchased 300 doses ( now that is my kind of sampling!). Ian McDouguall, the owner of Dunbeacon called me a few weeks ago and said that they now had their second calf crop on the ground. He told me he thinks the Leroy bulls being developed for their bull sale are the best set they have had in over 100 years of breeding Shorthorns. He said his calving record there was similar to mine, that being unassisted births from mature cows. He also said that the Leroy calves are the quietest calves they have ever worked with. That is my opinion as well. Many Leroy calves will lead within minutes of being haltered for the first time. I have had some who never tightened the rope when they were tied up for the first time. Leroy is exactly the same.

Leroy has added more butt to his calves than any other Shorthorn sire we have used. He is extremely sound structurally. After Semex selected him, some of their beef team from US and Canada stopped in to see him before he went to stud. They commented that he was possibly the most structurally sound bulls in the entire Semex beef line up. His calves are much the same. Semex has him listed as being a 5.8 frame. I would say he is more like a 6 or maybe a 6.2 at the most. In any event, he is what I would call a moderate framed bull. We weighed him in April at our bull sale and I was amazed when I read the scale and it said 2740 lb. We actually thought the scale needed to be balanced so we took him off and rebalanced it... and he weighed 2740 on the second weigh as well. He had been running on a small pasture with only a hay bale and a salt block for nutrition for over 6 weeks prior to this. He only received a few pounds of pellets when it was below -20 degrees in the winter. The rest of the time he ate only hay. He is the easiest fleshing bull we have ever used as well. Here are a couple pictures of Leroy offspring:

I have also attached a picture of Leroy's dam, who is one of our donors. I think this cow will show where he gets his easy fleshing ability from.

 

[knabe]

jit, have you bred leroy to jade, and if so, were you able to get a little more neck on her?

 

[justintime]

We have flushed Jade to Leroy two times. Got 18 embryos in two flushes. All sold within 1 day of the flushes with almost all going to Scotland and England. Some day I hope I will get a chance to put some in myself. Jade is coming home to be bred for a natural calf. She has been at the transplant center for 18 months now and she needs to get rebred. We are flushing two daughters now as a replacement for her. There should be some Leroys out of jade this year, but you may have to go to Britain to see them.

 

[justintime]

Here is a picture of Major Leroy taken April 08. He was wintered on hay and only got a few pounds of screening pellets on days that were below -20. He weighed 2740 , a week after this picture was taken.

I should also mention that we have two full sisters to our Elsies jade donor that will be calving this spring. We are having an internet embryo sale based on our website, and we will have over 300 embryos, as well as a few pregnancies ( including 3 Dunbeacon Venture X Leroy's dam , and one Saskvalley Primo 409 X Leroy's dam ---who is pictured above) and a few select flush opportunities ( including a polled full sister to Elsies Jade that we feel is as good or better at the same age as she was). I am putting it together right now, and will have the complete listing and information on our website in the next few days.
Primo is the Alta Cedar sire who sired Samuri, who won his class in Denver and sold for  $15,000 in their bull sale last spring.

 

[Shorthorns4us]

I am pulling this thread up with questions about Leroy.  JIT- chime in anytime. Is the semen straw code:  200SP0702
Also any other comments on using him on heifers?  Has anyone had any more experiences with him on heifers? 
I am currently going through my semen inventory and trying to decide what to use-- I have a good sized group of heifers to breed this year and I have semen-- I'd like to use what I have this year in inventory.
Any comments are welcome.
EF

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

I used Leroy on heifers...no birth problem. Also had a good calf by him. JILT is right, he adds butt on cattle, same of unbutted irish ones (for brazilian standard of course).
Also as technical inspector for Brazilian Shorthorn herd book, I select and inspect some herds here in southern Brazil. Never heard any one tell me about birth problems, and always see good butts and ribs on her calves.
Last year I flushed 2 cows with him and late this year the calves will born. Expecting good shape as well.
Not yeat information about how females works.
A good bull, very few semen is left for sale.
Leroy was just what commercial breeders were looking for a butted Shorthorn as the last ones on their mind were Enticer, Tribune, Austin S4, Rowdy Yates, Stonelea Winchester and Shadybrook Optimum.....so...not kind of bulls would compete with black wave that full all semen catalogues here.

 

[justintime]

I sold the semen rights in Major Leroy outright to Semex so I don't know how much semen they sold in total, but they had him in stud for 10 months and collected several thousand doses. My agreement with Semex was that I would be paid once Leroy had froze 1000 straws of semen. On his first collection he produced almost 1100 straws of high quality semen. Less that a year and a half after Leroy left stud, Semex told me they were sold out of semen. They also told me, that they had sold more Shorthorn semen in Brazil than the total of all other Shorthorn bulls they had had in history.
I have only had one bull do better on his first collect day, and that was our HC Free Spirit 6Y bull that we recently sold the European rights in, to a group of breeders from Ireland. When he went to stud I told them to collect 1000 doses of semen and to only freeze it if was very high quality and not just minimum standards. They called to ask if I wanted to freeze the entire collection as he had produced 1388 straws on his first collection.

I have never considered Major Leroy to be a bull that is safe for use on heifers, but I am very pleased to hear that some have done this, and not had problems. When anyone asked me, I always told them that there were probably some better choices to use on heifers. Leroy daughters have proven to be excellent producing females. Some of our better calves the past few years have come from Leroy daughters. The HC Cherry Mist 59T female shown in this thread is the dam of HC Marksman 25Z that just was named All American in the US and is now a herd sire at Moore's Shorthorns, Jerseyville, IL. 59T has a full brother to Marksman this year that also looks very promising.

 

[Shorthorns4us]

Thank you for the comments.  The reason I asked about the semen cane code was that my storage facility gave me my inventory list and they only have that cane code listed as "Leroy".  I just want to be sure they haven't mixed my semen up with the clubby "Leroy Brown" bull or any other "Leroy's" out there.    Is there a master cane code list somewhere you can look up or do I need to call Semex to be sure?

My problem is that the only thing I usually A.I. here is heifers due to the limited time I have to wrangle cattle and it is easier to deal with open heifers and get them processed through with my A. I. guy than working a bunch of cows with calves dragging along because we do all of the work off site. 
I think I will heed the advice a probably stay away from the heifers just to be safe.  I don't have time in the spring for train wrecks when calving heifers-- so I better stay pretty conservative and stay safe. 

I also thought I would hang onto it and use it in a flush?  But now this spring I am seriously considering getting out of the embryo business (what little I did anyway).  I am just not marketing that many animals to people that want certain embryo bred calves and my feedlot business has been doing better and they aren't looking for the certain embryo matings.

So......... anyone interested in 4 straws of Wolf Willow Major Leroy?  I would still love to have a heifer or cow sired by Wolf Willow in my herd-- I think they would produce excellent feeder calves, but I don't think I want to risk it.
EF

 

[shortybreeder]

How are the Leroy daughters turning out as cows? Are they easy keepers with good longevity? What types of pedigrees has he matched best with, and what are his daughters really working with?

 

[oakview]

I have a Sull Ideal daughter out of a Major Leroy cow that is one tremendous cow, and I don't mean just how she looks.  She'll have her 4th calf soon and is one of the best milkers on the place.  Good udder, good cow, calves are at the top end.  I would wager she gets a lot of her maternal attributes from Leroy. 

 

[RyanChandler]

Largest birthweight calf ever recorded at the NDSU research center was a Major Leroy.  I'd imagine there's been quite a few bulls from quite a few breeds come through there too-- If very large birthweights and very large mature cows are your thing, he may just be the bull for you.  It really puts it into context when it's stated that a 2750 pound bull was used to 'downsize.'

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Breed em to the Dover-Coalpit,Clean Jazz sons like Sultan of Jazz or Bollums bulls. or Red Reward Relatives(Jazz X Canadian make really good calves) Lovings wound up Enticers-the calves come TINY Bottom line-dont breed him to HI BW genetics O0 O0

 

[shortybreeder]

That's good to know! The cow I'm looking to breed had a 110lb heifer this year, so I guess he's not the one to use on her.

 

[linnettejane]

I have a daughter that has had 4 calves all unassisted, actually I have yet to see one born...they have all been up nursing and running around in the pasture when we find them.  Ive kept 2 of her daughters and they will have first calves this coming fall.  I have some semen that I am going to use on my jazz cross cows in a couple years. 

 

[justintime]

Largest birthweight calf ever recorded at the NDSU research center was a Major Leroy.  I'd imagine there's been quite a few bulls from quite a few breeds come through there too-- If very large birthweights and very large mature cows are your thing, he may just be the bull for you.  It really puts it into context when it's stated that a 2750 pound bull was used to 'downsize.'

Without exception my Major Leroy daughters are the smallest framed cows in my herd. They have also risen to the top as being some of my best producing cows. They have been bred to a variety of sires and the calves are always in the top end of the calf crop. They are not the heaviest milking cows in the herd, but they always have fat calves in the fall so they obviously have adequate milk. Leroy surprised us every time we weighed him as he was always much heavier than we expected. I have attached another picture of Leroy as an 8 year old bull that shows how tall he is in comparison to me. I have also posted a picture of a cow with a Major Leroy calf at side, to show how he changed his offspring in one generation. The third picture is of Leroy with a group of his calves. He was the easiest fleshing bull we have ever owned. His offspring are the same.
Semex sold semen from Leroy in over 100 countries and they told me that more Leroy semen was sold in Brazil than all the Shorthorn bulls they have ever marketed there.
I would not ever call Leroy a calving ease sire. That said, we only assisted a very few calves each year from him. In regards to the comment about the largest BW calf at ND state, I cannot comment on that as I do not know all the details. Obviously, the sire is a part of the equation that determines BW, but sometimes you are left wondering how a big calf arrived from some so called low birthweight sires. A few years ago, I had a 128 lb heifer calf from a sire that is considered a calving ease sire in the breed. This heifer calf was out of a first calf heifer and I was able to pull the calf but the dam never rebred. The sire has a BW EPD of 0.0. This calf was one of the biggest BW calves I have ever had. Should I be putting all the blame on this sire? He had a part but he was not 100% responsible for this happening. I parentage tested the calf and she came back as being sired by this calving ease bull.  Personally I never had a monster sized calf from Leroy with the heaviest one I ever recorded being 116 lbs and he was banded faster than chain lightning. As per usual, when a big calf shows up the sire gets all the blame. Oftentimes there are a few generations of genetics and environmental issues that come into play.
I bought Major Leroy to do two things: 1) to add fleshing ability and 2) to downsize mature frame of his offspring. He did both extremely well. He was used here until he was 10 years old when he got a foot injury that was going to end his pasture career. Most of his bull calves here sold to commercial herds and one of the largest Purebred herds in Australia has used several hundred straws of Leroy semen to produce commercial bulls in that country as well. He may not have been the best bull to walk the earth, but he was a good one!

 

[GM]

JIT, He doesn't look very tall.  Can you attach a pic of you standing next to Glenford Curt or one of the other Ayatollah sons for some frame score perspective?  Lol!

 

[mark tenenbaum]

JIT, He doesn't look very tall.  Can you attach a pic of you standing next to Glenford Curt or one of the other Ayatollah sons for some frame score perspective?  Lol!//// Yah I know its all relative but LETS SEE some of the "very large cows" out of him The heifers etc I saw in JITS sales or site years ago were not very tall. I would like to see JIT standing with one of the popular US "pureist" bulls in pasture condition so we have a more balanced comparison. No not a comparison as far as breadth of use-there is none LOL O0

 

[Medium Rare]

The hand on hip image has really helped me "picture" Leroy in my mind. I assumed he was larger framed than he appears to be.

I see he is carrying some fairly high accuracies in the database. How do you feel the current epd system's figures compare to his real world performance?