Would you fudge on age?

[VJ]

I won't buy those smaller "May" hfrs unless I know the breeder and trust them. Small May hfrs are usually early March's that won't grow.

 

[ShowmanQ]

I won't buy those smaller "May" hfrs unless I know the breeder and trust them. Small May hfrs are usually early March's that won't grow.

That's odd. Here in OH, the smallest heifers in the May class are usually the only ones being shown in the correct division. (lol)

 

[OH Breeder]

Q you know some of those mays are aprils and late Marches. LOL.
I know of one breeder that took a march and made her a JUne. I was at there place the month after she was born. When they took her out for the first time in December she some how was born in June. It was all I could do to keep it together when they came in the ring and announced the class.

I would say it happens more than it doesn't happen. DOes that make it right NO. Can you compete, it will always be hard for those of us to compete that are honest about birthdates. We decided that unless we have TRUE January's and February's we weren't showing at a show in November in our area any more. I would like to see the growth EPD's on some of those club genetics.

 

[GONEWEST]

JIT mentioned about moderation in size, the biggest ones still win here. Never quite able to understand that, lol.

Box 6 mentioned showing by weight. We show commercial breeding heifers here by weight and it is so stupid. For instance, there were October calves showing against February calves that weighed within 50 lbs of each other. If the judge knew the age, those older heifers, who of course are more mature, bigger bodied,  wouldn't have placed so highly due to lack of performance. A 14 month old show heifer that is eating the best of the best and being pampered should weigh more than 825.

When you have our wonderful Iowan friends sending the left over spring calves in here as Septembers, there is no choice except to make the August calves Septembers and the Christmas calves January's. And that may not be enough to compete with more mature calves that have had more time to fill out. If you can't compete with most of your calf crop, you can't sell calves and you're not going to be in business.

There is really no way to legislate or make rules that prevent cheating. It's just how it is. If you don't like it, you should probably do something else.

 

[GONEWEST]

sorry, that 14 month old was a typo, it should have said 17 months old.

 

[Steered]

I just thought about it this way... If you caught your child in a lie and they said that they had to do it because everyone else was...would you be proud?  Remember those kids we are trying to raise follow our example...

 

[Show Heifer]

Gonewest: Funny how all of "Iowans" are sending our left overs to you folks....apparently (IYO)  all are mis-aged.  Maybe its because you folks BUY them? By the way, I sell mine locally so its not me!!!

Along with most of you I do not mis age, mis weigh, or mis pedigree ANYTHING.
Yes cheating happens. I know it. You all know it. Heck, some of you have done it. Some even admit to it unless it is face to face. That is ok. I expect nothing less.  That is why I deal with people I know, people I trust.

Oh, and Elbee, isn't funny how some of those "breeders" can't do the math? There was a calf that from 4-H weigh in to the beef expo gained something like 8 pounds a day. Whatever. I believe that just like I believe the 8 month bull that had 43 cm testicles!!

 

[Dusty]

There was a calf that from 4-H weigh in to the beef expo gained something like 8 pounds a day. Whatever.

Thats not impossible at all...

 

[dlt]

I have been struggling with this issue all year. We had a pretty good little Shorthorn Plus heifer last year, born the last day of April in the early evening. Being she was born on the last day of April, that's exactly what her papers say. A nice family bought her and are showing her quite a bit, and let me tell you, it is sooo frustrating showing an April in an April class full of Marches. Every now and then, I will get someone who asks "Why did'nt you just register her as  a May 13t, she was only 6 hours off?" Well...she was not born in May, plain and simple. Thus, the honest guy get's the shaft. (lol)

Showman Q,    If you check the OCA Best rules you will find that March and April heifers show together in the same class.  You could be showing with a March 1st heifer that is 2 months older than yours.  It is difficult for younger heifers to compete with ones that are that much older.  Do you think your heifer would have gotten along better with the May heifers?

 

[Show Heifer]

There was a calf that from 4-H weigh in to the beef expo gained something like 8 pounds a day. Whatever.

Thats not impossible at all...

Exactly my point dusty, but it was attempted!! Someone just finally the math to "verify" it! (And no, this wasn't recently, nor did it make "headlines")

 

[Maines in PA]

This thread hit home.  After 6 total calves, one of my daughter's 2 cows FINALLY had a heifer calf for her to show as a bred and owned.  Snazzy little blaze faced Hard Core - On February 27.  It'll be registered as a February, but why that cow couldn't have held onto it for another 36 hours is beyond me.

 

[ShowmanQ]

I have been struggling with this issue all year. We had a pretty good little Shorthorn Plus heifer last year, born the last day of April in the early evening. Being she was born on the last day of April, that's exactly what her papers say. A nice family bought her and are showing her quite a bit, and let me tell you, it is sooo frustrating showing an April in an April class full of Marches. Every now and then, I will get someone who asks "Why did'nt you just register her as  a May 13t, she was only 6 hours off?" Well...she was not born in May, plain and simple. Thus, the honest guy get's the shaft. (lol)

Showman Q,    If you check the OCA Best rules you will find that March and April heifers show together in the same class.   You could be showing with a March 1st heifer that is 2 months older than yours.  It is difficult for younger heifers to compete with ones that are that much older.  Do you think your heifer would have gotten along better with the May heifers?

DLT,
I am well aware of the OCA BEST rules. I was actually not speaking directly of the BEST program, should have been a little clearer I suppose. On a few, 3, occasions, the heifer was in a class of all "Aprils" and there is no way that a couple of them were born any later than mid March. I do think that the heifer we sold would have done a LITTLE better in the May class, not much...but a LITTLE. To me, it is not worth my reputation as a breeder to fudge numbers(whether it is birthdates, weights, etc.) I am sure there are many people that would find it acceptable to call that particular heifer a May calf, being she was only 6-8 hours away, but if I were to do that I would have always had that in the back of my mind. I am sorry if I offended you in any way, not my intention, just giving an example.

 

[Jill]

This thread hit home.  After 6 total calves, one of my daughter's 2 cows FINALLY had a heifer calf for her to show as a bred and owned.  Snazzy little blaze faced Hard Core - On February 27.  It'll be registered as a February, but why that cow couldn't have held onto it for another 36 hours is beyond me.

You know that's really not such a bad thing, the March class is normally the toughest class of the day and sometimes you are better off to be in the earlier class.

 

[DCC_Cattle]

I have been struggling with this issue all year. We had a pretty good little Shorthorn Plus heifer last year, born the last day of April in the early evening. Being she was born on the last day of April, that's exactly what her papers say. A nice family bought her and are showing her quite a bit, and let me tell you, it is sooo frustrating showing an April in an April class full of Marches. Every now and then, I will get someone who asks "Why did'nt you just register her as  a May 13t, she was only 6 hours off?" Well...she was not born in May, plain and simple. Thus, the honest guy get's the shaft. (lol)

Showman Q,    If you check the OCA Best rules you will find that March and April heifers show together in the same class.   You could be showing with a March 1st heifer that is 2 months older than yours.  It is difficult for younger heifers to compete with ones that are that much older.  Do you think your heifer would have gotten along better with the May heifers?

Well, first of all just because the OCA BEST Program has rules, does not mean that anyone follows them. So does that mean that if you have a March 1st heifer it's okay to go ahead and make her an April 28 just because that age group shows together? NO! Not only are people lieing on the ages of heifers, people who do not even have ownership are showing them. Where do you even begin to start, if you want to start talking about OCA BEST Rules...what rules?!? The ones that nobody follows?

 

[braunvieh]

I have caught several people in a lie about calf's ages. We were all questioning a bull calf at FW this January that was supposedly an Aug bull, we were all scratching our heads on that one. Then , as I am walking by, I hear the son talking to an interested party, says come look at this bull, he's a MAY!!!! Busted!  I have also had people send me pictures of new calves on the ground that have the date stamp on them, then go look the calf up and it isn't even born on the date the picture was taken.

We have to show Jan-Feb and Mar-Apr calves together so really fudging doesn't do any good, unless you want to move a Feb to Mar or something. I don't want to do that. I do, however, enjoy selling seedstock that have great data and numbers based on ACTUAL performance and have pleased customers for it. I hope people are generally honest about this stuff but I know I am probably the minority to think that.  Good topic.

 

[David]

I have been showing for about 10 years at the local county fair. Just in the past 4 years Have i been going to some state fairs. It is hard to imagine that a calf that Is within 100#S of the compition on a local level can get out power by 200 sometimes 300#s. Come on people. Judges are not at fault because they pick the overpowerig animals. But te judges should have an idea on what a calf should wiegh at what age.

 

[GONEWEST]

I DO think the judges are at fault. If they didn't pick 1400 lb 12 month old heifers to win, nobody would age them. The exhibitor/customer also has some culpability in this. They don't buy calves to come in second. It's all about the winning. Now we can have the debate over and over about how important winning is all the way to debating if little league should give everyone a trophy. But until cattle shows become walking around in a ring, having a judge tell everyone how good their calf is and giving them all a purple ribbon, it'll be about winning. If I sell a calf for a small premium, say $2500 and the calf doesn't win and win alot, that customer is going to someone else next year like the guy from Iowa to buy one that is 4 months out of age. Because they want to win.

Those are just the facts, that's how it REALLY is. There are may good things about this show calf deal, but it's not exactly the height of human integrity. If I don't think that moving a calf from Christmas to January is unethical given the real way this game we play is played, you'll just have to forgive me. 6 days in a year old calf's  life does not give it an advantage. It DOES take away the disadvantage of having that calf compete with others that are 4 months older or more and maybe move it into a bunch that are within maybe two months of the right age. 

 

[knabe]

for you oldtimer show participants at open shows, what is the added profit of attending shows versus winning, considering that some bulls stand last in class and are now in demand and larger cattle in demand from the past are now clearly a mistake as the gene pool was severely comprimised especially for maine's in the early 70's by overselecting giants in the showring.

proportion should have more of an impact.

 

[box6rranch]

for you oldtimer show participants at open shows, what is the added profit of attending shows versus winning, considering that some bulls stand last in class and are now in demand and larger cattle in demand from the past are now clearly a mistake as the gene pool was severely comprimised especially for maine's in the early 70's by overselecting giants in the showring.

proportion should have more of an impact.

No brainer-Purple ribbons sell calves, embryos and semen. Takes longer for folks to actually figure out that first isn't always better.

 

[Beach Limousin]

Personally, I don't change ages, but I know some do. The way I think, I want to know how the calf performs. Our show heifers usually become our donors of the future, so if I need to change there birthdate a month to make them the right age, then I am going to haft to change there calves two months to be the right age, and the cycle will never stop. As far as being more competitive, it may help while there calves, but once they hit the yearling stage, usually just makes them look bigger framed. Just my opinion.
Cody