Angus "Classing out" @ Austin

[Telos]

Maybe it is time for steer shows to be about the steers and not the breed. Cattle are sorted out by color in the real world. So let's get real and sort these steers by hair color or specific markings and ear. Angus colored and polled, Hereford marked, Shorthorn marked, Americans are multi colored with ear, etc.. For exampe, if you have a solid black calf that is polled you can show it as an Angus or have the option of showing it as a crossbreed. These steer shows are about picking an ideal steer and should not be about promoting a specific breed. I think it is common knowledge that a solid black calf is the result of Angus genetics and the Angus folks should be happy with how well their genetics work in producing ideal market cattle. There is just no practical way of ever knowing the ancestors of a calf.

A calf being sifted because it doesn't look breed specific is just stupid stuff and should never happen to a kid. Shame on we adults who let this happen. The system needs to be changed because it just doesn't work. Just my two cents.

 

[mooch]

Maybe it is time for steer shows to be about the steers and not the breed. Cattle are sorted out by color in the real world. So let's get real and sort these steers by hair color or specific markings and ear. Angus colored and polled, Hereford marked, Shorthorn marked, Americans are multi colored with ear, etc.. For exampe, if you have a solid black calf that is polled you can show it as an Angus or have the option of showing it as a crossbreed. These steer shows are about picking an ideal steer and should not be about promoting a specific breed. I think it is common knowledge that a solid black calf is the result of Angus genetics and the Angus folks should be happy with how well their genetics work in producing ideal market cattle. There is just no practical way of ever knowing the ancestors of a calf.

A calf being sifted because it doesn't look breed specific is just stupid stuff and should never happen to a kid. Shame on we adults who let this happen. The system needs to be changed because it just doesn't work. Just my two cents.

There you go again, ruining another post with reason.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

I don't have a dog in this fight but it seems to me that if you are going to have 3 people sifting each breed, they should be represented by a breed association representative and 2 breeders of that breed. I'm sure that there would be additional cost involved with having different sifters for each breed but I think the end result might be nore realistic. But at the end of the day I really don't care. RW

 

[linnettejane]

really none of my business either, just curious.....do the kids have to classify their animal at every show they go to?  or do they just classify at the start of a project and then they are good to go the rest of the time with that animal?
seems like if they have to classify at every show, then it could get crazy...has anyone ever classified at one show and then not another? 

 

[cowboybecoachin]

Jeff and chambero, you guys are obviously well versed and experienced in Texas steer showing. I appreciate your thoughts and your common sense answers. Cambero, I totally agree that the classifiers should have some training, see some real good Angus cattle and not be the "numbers Angus" or "carcass Angus" guys as many of them never raised a really thick muscled, big boned calf. I mean, if you are a breeder using Objective or most of the Gardiner-type carcass bulls, you will probably never have the dimension, muscling, bone, etc. of a KB Max Out or any number of real stout Angus bulls available.
You are also correct in that there is no rule broken by attempting to get your steers classed in a particular breed. We have had Maine influenced calves class Angus in the past. We have some for sale that might class Angus next year, that have Maine influence.  We know about playing the game.
But probably what burns my biscuits a little is knowing a steer is pure blood, and he is booted, while knowing others are not pure and they get in. I think if we had knowledgeable classifiers this would not happen as often. Angus can be VERY good. I also beleive that at some point, we will be able to correctly identify  the purebloods. Just not sure how. Perhaps a DNA test at or before validation, then a test on the top 1 or 2 in each class to determine if it is the same steer? Would this take too much time? Would it serve as a deterent?
I am all for the different breeds and classes. More participation, more winning and happy kids and families.

Telos, a black calf may not have ANY Angus blood. And color is not the main criteria for "sorting" commercial cattle. Conformation, condition healthare more important to most order buyers I know. Not saying black is not the "in" color right now, but that alone will not get you top price @ the sale barn.

Cambero, I think I could do a litttle better job than most classifiers, as I raise good cattle and I would give more lee-way than some guys do. In other words,, I would let more steers in the show, unless I was very sure in my mind the calf was not an Angus. I beleive some guys are more prone to kick calves out than others.

Now, we all know that some well-known folks lead their kid's steer through as they are well known and there is definitely some added pressure on the classifiers. I saw this @ FT. Worth. It really does not bother me, as it is part of the game to be recognized. Again. my problem is not in what gets in as much as what gets eliminated.

I know there are not easy answers, and I think we have as good if not the best steer shows found in the country.

Thanks again for your comments.

 

[cowboybecoachin]

Warrior,the answer to classsifiers from a specific breed association, as concerning Angus, is that there are basically 2 types of Angus. Carcass cattle that have a set of numbers that indicate they may have a higher quality of meat, and are popular with many breeders, and the stout show cattle that I and many others prefer. The carcass cattle (all guts, no butt) guy  might not know that there are really good, thick muscled, big boned Angus cattle because he has never raised any. He might tend to think the extra bone and muscle must have other influence. The guys that select the classifiers might not know that the guy from the association has no real clue on Angus "show" cattle.

Jane, one of our calves classed out @ Ft. Worth, classed @ Houston but did not place, and then classed out @ Austin.

Canbero and Jeff are right. We all take our lumps @ times. Part of the game. Not that we have to like it! Thanks to all for the vent.

 

[Mouse]

I have a dog in this fight and I have an opinion on the matter.  I think the system works but needs some adjustments.  My kids show heifers and steers they have been sifted at different shows.  What really gets me is the guys that sift.  Most of the time there is one breed association person and 2 others either county agent or ag teacher.  Most agents and ag teachers I know and know of raise steers, jockey steers, and place steers with families.  These same agents and ag teachers are active in the TJLA and their at all the jackpot show and other shows.  They know the steers, kids, and parents so having them sift to me is the same thing as letting the "fox guard the hen house".  Do you really think these sifters are going to sift their own steers!  When their sifting they do communicate to each other the ones that need to go or stay. 

The problem is not the system put the application of the system.

 

[aj]

There is no doubt that there is th positive cattle floating around in the Angus,Herford,Limi,Gelbvieh, you name it breed. Could they develop a on site th test somehow? That would be a simple way. With all the th retardation of a once honorable industry this would be the key seems to me.

 

[carl s.]

And now it's a party.

Between AJ and Show Heifer, this forum has more judgement than Revelations 6.

 

[DLD]

Speaking of narrow visioned, where do American breed steers show in the Tulsa State Fair?

I'm not torch, but I'll bite on this one.

We do have Brahman influence, Brangus, and Beefmaster classes available at Tulsa, I believe (there's not a rule book available online at the moment).  They get their own class, and if there are 12 or more the champion is automatically in the sale, 15 or more and they get a percentage just like the "big breeds". If there are less, they show against the other smaller breeds (Braunvieh, Saler, Gelbvieh, etc...) for AOB champion and reserve and sale slots (which is btw different and seperate from the crossbred division where the classed out cattle from other breeds and those showing crossbred by choice are).  Using your own logic about types of cattle varying geographically, this seems reasonable, because there really aren't all that many American breed cattle in OK.  Still we do give them a chance to compete within their own breed, along with a few other breeds that aren't available in TX majors.  This is being narrow visioned?

Folks from other parts of the world just have a tough time accepting that in OK and TX the rules don't expect the breed steers to be purebred, but just to meet their visual requirements.  Yes it is a shame that purebreds get classed out or that steers with virtually no genetic influence of a particular breed sometimes can have the right appearance to get classified, but all told the vast majority of us are not ready to throw out what we've got .

 

[GONEWEST]

See,  I just don't think classification  should be a big deal because the goal is not to have a bunch of steers in a class that all happen to be Herefords. The idea is to break a ton of steers down into divisions so that as many people can be winners as possible. The easiest way to get actual purebred calves to show against each other is to have a side show sponsored by the breed associations that require papers and an immediate DNA sampling of the champions. This doesn't need to be rocket science. It seems to me that if everyone understood the idea wasn't to make sure all Simmi influence steers, for instance,  got into the same division they wouldn't be so upset about the way classification works. If you want to show an Angus steer against Angus steers get your association to sponsor a registered Angus steer show and get them to make the reward meaningful. Now if they had a class for Mexican Hairless at Houston, I think they could all get in. Just sayin..............

 

[JSchroeder]

DLD, I ask because there aren't any listed in the results for last October's show.  I realize there's a class for them and they've sold in the past but if all of them combined don't come to 12, Tulsa is nothing the Texas majors need to look to for guidance.  American show steers are most certainly still raised in Oklahoma.

In contrast, breeds simply don't die off in Texas.  As flawed as the classification system may seem, having a breed in the steer division breathes life into it (well, cattle that look like it).  Polled Hereford was merged into Hereford at one time but even our most vicious classification breed, Red Angus, gets at least 24 entries.  Ironically, the only place in the Texas majors where breeds die off and are no longer shown is in the breeding heifer shows where 'classification' is done the way many are suggesting.

 

[DLD]

I never said you needed to do it our way Jeff, just wanted everyone to know that the option is there to show 'em if they want.  We both know our steer shows have lots less numbers than yours, I'm just saying I believe what we do is fair enough for the numbers we get. And I know there are some American show steers raised in OK - a good friend of mine averaged 5 figures on a couple this spring.  There's a fair chance that if there ever got to be 15 of them at TSF or OYE it could go ahead and grow into a decent show, but 'til then it is what it is.

I haven't seen a breed die off (in the steer shows) here.  We've never had enough Americans to die off.  I have said that the Angus (and to a lesser extent the Hereford) breed suffered somewhat when classsification got too tough, but they're certainly thriving under todays system.

 

[DLD]

See,  I just don't think classification  should be a big deal because the goal is not to have a bunch of steers in a class that all happen to be Herefords. The idea is to break a ton of steers down into divisions so that as many people can be winners as possible. The easiest way to get actual purebred calves to show against each other is to have a side show sponsored by the breed associations that require papers and an immediate DNA sampling of the champions. This doesn't need to be rocket science. It seems to me that if everyone understood the idea wasn't to make sure all Simmi influence steers, for instance,  got into the same division they wouldn't be so upset about the way classification works. If you want to show an Angus steer against Angus steers get your association to sponsor a registered Angus steer show and get them to make the reward meaningful. Now if they had a class for Mexican Hairless at Houston, I think they could all get in. Just sayin..............

Exactly... And for those of you worried about your national association money going to sponsor these mongrelized shows, don't worry - it's not.

 

[JSchroeder]

Sorry, I should have been clear that I realize you didn’t say it should be done your way.  The reply you were replying to was in reply (hope that makes sense) to somebody who was making that point.  What I said to you was continuing in the context of what you were replying to.

 

[DLD]

No problem, I just had to go back and re-read that previous post to get it straight.  You and I are pretty much on the same page here, I think.

 

[petejc72]

Living in the NW I am as far removed from the world of "big" time steer shows as you can be. Having a curious mind I  am interested in how this whole classifying thing works??

 

[OH Breeder]

First of all if you do not show in, sell to, or at least reside in Texas, why are you posting an opinion? For all I know there is French Lop rabbit board that is raising a ruckuss (for the umpteenth time) about verifying ear length standards at Great Rabbit Round Up in Hackensack NJ. I wouldnt know because IT AINT MY BUSINESS. Im not from NJ, nor do I show rabbits so why would anyone there give a hoot about my opinion of rabbit classification there?

However they do whatever they do at Texas shows, they do it because it works for them and obviously they have experience enough to know what does and doesnt work.

People whine, whether it be getting sifted, where they placed, who judged, temperature of ice cream, etc.

I can tell you this, no one from Iowa has any business telling anyone from Texas how to ensure animals are shown by their legitimate parentage. Blood typing? please. Registration papers? all that proves is that ink sticks to paper. DNA? For petes sake its a 4h steer show.

At least down there you can be honest about it. When there is a line seemingly a hundred head deep of steers trying to get into a class of a certain type, the most common sense approach to me is 3 guys opinion yeah, or nay and move on.

I am sure if a better, faster way that appeals to the people THAT MATTER comes along they will use it.

I laughed out loud at that one......HILARIOUS! Made my day.

 

[Telos]

I'm from Texas and think a three man panel is about as ridiculous as trying to qualify one of those NJ rabbits in a steer show. Sometimes they just don't get it.  : ??? :

 

[Steered]

See,  I just don't think classification  should be a big deal because the goal is not to have a bunch of steers in a class that all happen to be Herefords. The idea is to break a ton of steers down into divisions so that as many people can be winners as possible.

If this is the goal why not just weigh them up and break them into as many classes/divisions as needed?