Asterisk free shorthorn

[ML]

Well I have hesitated to comment, but this thread intrigues me.  A lot of threads on this board concentrate on particular merits of cattle that make them easier to market or claim a higher than market value.  Example:  hair, bone, sire, etc.  I think asterisk free cattle have merit in marketing if nothing else.  It is one more thing to promote your animals with.  How can that be bad?

 

[brasky]

ML makes a great point.  Asterisk free has merit and can add value.  We all know that past pedigrees may not all be exactly true, however they are in the herdbooks.  JIT, what percentages of todays shorthorn catalogs you read offer askterisk free cattle?  Not very many.  I'm not saying asterisk free is the answer by all means, but I think it could help the breed with some of the problems it faces.  I do agree with JIT, that cattle should be judged on quality first.  Just because we find an amp of semen it doesn't automaticly makes it good.  It goes the same way with a National Champion dam.  The fact of a calfs mother has a purple banner, doesnt always make it a quality calf.  All people judge cattle differently therefor the need for all kind of cattle.   

 

[Doc]

I have several guys a year that call looking for * free cattle. Now it has gotten even more confusing in the past few years since ASA changed the rule & allows you to breed the * off. JIT, I undertsand what you are saying about bulls like Ayatollah & the full Irish bulls & not having traceable pedigrees. But the fact remains that here in the US the full Irish bulls are considered by our breed registry as * free. So if they consider them as such , why not use that fact as another marketing tool. I don't know for sure but I'm going to venture & say that you would be hard pressed to find any cattle here in th US that are marketed as * free , that don't have Irish blood in them. Once again in my world I think it's like Trump cattle. Breed what you like , breed what helps your herd & breed what you can sell.

 

[justintime]

Here in Canada, we can now breed the asterisk off the pedigree as well. My main point is that an asterisk free animal in Canada can have an asterisk in the US or some other breed registry. There are also lots of cattle that are asterisk free in the US that are appendix in Canada.This has been created by our different breed associations allowing or disallowing certain cattle into the herdbooks as non appendix animals.  It just seems to me, that especially when the US and Canada do a considerable amount of trade between them, that is incredibly confusing.
As far non asterisk cattle doing better than asterisk cattle, I have seen it both ways. I have easy fleshing animals in both the appendix and non appendix cattle. I only have three cows that have any Trump breeding and they are all daughters of Sonny. All three of these cows are amongst the easiest fleshing cows I own. I know there are lots of these cattle that are harder keeping but I guess I was lucky in finding some that are suited to our environment. I have shipped non appendix cows, as well as appendix cows,  that could not cut it here.
As far as performance, I can only go by my own records, but when I look back at my weaning weights, and at the performance records from 4 years, we have seen vairiations in this as well. There have been bulls from each side, wean the heaviest and gain the best. For example, our Timeline bull was the heaviest weaning bull to go onto test and he went on to index 127 for gain and 120 for WPDA on a group of bulls that was approximately 80% non appendix. A son did had similar results last year. That is just an example. This year the highest performing bull was non appendix.
I just believe there are great cattle in both registry's and I am glad we have both of them. IMO, we have much bigger issues we should be dealing with than whether there is an asterisk on the paper or not. On several occasions, I have asked vistors to pick out the appendix and non  appendix cattle in our cow herd. So far, no one has been able to do it.

 

[r.n.reed]

Agreed,
I agree with JIT that an asterisk free pedigree does not guarantee a pure animal and that there are asterisk cattle that are more pure than some of the ''free cattle''.
I also agree with A&T that the more pure the components are  in a crossbreeding program the bigger the bang.
I also agree that the asterisk free is a marketing program but would ad that it is the fashionable pedigree curse in a new incarnation.
What concerns me is that Shorthorn is a tiny piece of pie in the cattle industry and a very small piece of that Shorthorn pie are breeders breeding production cattle and this divides that minutia even further

 

[mark tenenbaum]

The assertion that the Irish Shorthorns had Galloway blood stemming from the Deerpark herd is the biggest load of twaddle. There were NO Galloway cattle worth mentioning on the island of Ireland, let alone above all places the province of Munster where the Deerpark herd was located. And Mark you can count your blessings that the Irish cattle got to your side of the Atlantic or else the breed would probably have been relegated to rare breed status. Whilst the Irish cattle may not have had RECORDED pedigrees  they would have been as pure as anything registered in Coates or the main section of the Canadian herd book. Looking at the photographs of the belt buckle type cattle that were prevelant at that time it's no wonder the breed lost it's standing with the commercial cattle men. In truth they had become small, dumpy and non-functional. Over this side of the water in the UK the British breeders took the easy option and crossed their pedigree full blood cattle directly to full blood Maine Anjous. Why? Simply it was a quick fix way of getting a bit of size back into the breed, and as a bonus the Maine Anjou breed was on the way out in the UK so the Beef Shorthorn breeders of the time were able to purchase Maine cattle for next to nothing. What they should have done was source the bigger functional Shorthorn cattle in Australia, Canada and the USA and work to improve the breed using these genetics but they chose the lazy cheap option. When I am sourcing outcross genetics I always try to find asterix free cattle that are what the breed is all about.....maternal traits and hopefully the male calves that won't make bulls will grade well and pay well when they are slaughtered. To this end I have imported semen from 2 Eionmor bulls and four Alta Cedar bulls directly in to Ireland in recent times, the most recent of these being Alta Cedar Perfect Storm 11U.///Actually-the joke was on Enticer-who most certainly was part maine-Guiness was in my opinion the best Irish bull,and alot of the cattle I had went back to him.I went to Deerpark in 1991-and Maloneys,and Bayllyart-and saw Paddy O Callahans uncredible Scarlet cow etc. Kevin Culhanes cattle were some of the most beutifull cows I had ever seen. Personally-I really dont think the best ones ever left Ireland.I also like a little maine in them-too.

 

[sue]

ML makes a great point.  Asterisk free has merit and can add value.  We all know that past pedigrees may not all be exactly true, however they are in the herdbooks.  JIT, what percentages of todays shorthorn catalogs you read offer askterisk free cattle?  Not very many.  I'm not saying asterisk free is the answer by all means, but I think it could help the breed with some of the problems it faces.  I do agree with JIT, that cattle should be judged on quality first.  Just because we find an amp of semen it doesn't automaticly makes it good.  It goes the same way with a National Champion dam.  The fact of a calfs mother has a purple banner, doesnt always make it a quality calf.  All people judge cattle differently therefor the need for all kind of cattle.   

ML has two options for you Brasky- GFS RED Cloud 7026 and ML Cabela.  I just returned from a visit - commerical black herd ANxSM and Maine influence. Over the years they have AI to 3 nonasterik bulls from us and purchased a asterik free bull and AId to an asterk free bull - the calves are hands down the most uniform set.  The owners and myself agreed that uniformity is the most important in marketing bulls to commerical breeders. 

 

[aandtcattle]

Here in Canada, we can now breed the asterisk off the pedigree as well. My main point is that an asterisk free animal in Canada can have an asterisk in the US or some other breed registry. There are also lots of cattle that are asterisk free in the US that are appendix in Canada.This has been created by our different breed associations allowing or disallowing certain cattle into the herdbooks as non appendix animals.  It just seems to me, that especially when the US and Canada do a considerable amount of trade between them, that is incredibly confusing.
As far non asterisk cattle doing better than asterisk cattle, I have seen it both ways. I have easy fleshing animals in both the appendix and non appendix cattle. I only have three cows that have any Trump breeding and they are all daughters of Sonny. All three of these cows are amongst the easiest fleshing cows I own. I know there are lots of these cattle that are harder keeping but I guess I was lucky in finding some that are suited to our environment. I have shipped non appendix cows, as well as appendix cows,  that could not cut it here.
As far as performance, I can only go by my own records, but when I look back at my weaning weights, and at the performance records from 4 years, we have seen vairiations in this as well. There have been bulls from each side, wean the heaviest and gain the best. For example, our Timeline bull was the heaviest weaning bull to go onto test and he went on to index 127 for gain and 120 for WPDA on a group of bulls that was approximately 80% non appendix. A son did had similar results last year. That is just an example. This year the highest performing bull was non appendix.
I just believe there are great cattle in both registry's and I am glad we have both of them. IMO, we have much bigger issues we should be dealing with than whether there is an asterisk on the paper or not. On several occasions, I have asked vistors to pick out the appendix and non  appendix cattle in our cow herd. So far, no one has been able to do it.

JIT, I'm not sure you are understanding where I am coming from on this point as you compare what I said with your bull test.  These are totally different things.  I was referring to appendix free sired calves out of non-shorthorn dams performing better than appendix shorthorn sired calves out of non-shorthorn dams.  You are referring to the comparison you have of asterisk-free versus asterisk in a head-to-head gain test.  In my opinion, the asterisk cattle shoulddo better than the asterisk free cattle as the cattle carrying an asterisk are indeed more like a crossbred.  Many may not like the term "crossbred" for the asterisk carrying cattle but that is in essence what they are, that is what the "*" stands for, it says- "hi, i'm diluted"
I am not going to argue, there are outstanding cattle in both sectors of the breed, non-appendix and appendix.  This is purely a personal preference issue.  I personally prefer appendix-free cattle.  I have been breeding shorthorns for 8 years and have seen a distinct difference in my herd between the appendix and non-appendix cattle.  I really beleive in the appendix-free stuff and have invested a lot of hard earned money in accumulating my appendix-free cowherd and am proud to keep the appendix-free status intact.  I think there may be a few more appendix-free fans out there if there were more people that had appendix-free herds.  But when people assess their situation and see that they have very few or maybe no cows that are appendix-free they just say, "well, all my cows have an asterisk at least somewhere in their pedigree so why should I even bother to breed the asterisk off of my pedigrees."  People are very predictable, they are fans of what they have, they promote what they raise, and in a lot of scenarios that I have seen, what people talk and what they raise are 2 totally different things.  Some people even change their philosophies and convictions from year to year because they have no distinct breeding program, no specific goal in sight.  They wave in the wind and latch on to every fad or craze that comes down the pipe.  They end up with a hodge-podge calf cowherd, numerous calves that are the result of fire and ice matings and essentially a group of cattle that don't appeall to anyone.  Let your beleifs and convictions be known, breed cattle that work for YOU first and sell to the people who want your kind of cattle.

 

[irishshorthorns]

We are still very lucky in Ireland in that we still have a large quality of semen in storage at A.I. facilities throughout the country from bulls that are full Irish in their makeup. Unfortunately due to the success of certain bloodlines the breed came to a bottleneck over here genetically with many of the country's herds using similar bulls in their breeding programmes. Modern times have seen the introduction of genetics from Canada, the U.S., Australia and New Zealand with varying degrees of success. One of the big disadvantage of the American lines is that they seem to be totally focused at the Club Calf market. The result I feel is a lack of maternal attributes in the females. In Australia many breeders are breeding for slick coated red coloured cattle - definitely not what the market needs or wants this side of the globe. I have found some useful genetics in New Zealand but these have all been influenced heavily by Canadian genetics so why bother with a diluted version of what you want when you can get "the real deal" in it's original form from it's native land. Whilst not all Canadian cattle are ideal I feel the best Shorthorn cattle at the moment are indeed to be found in Canada. Breeders there seem to focus on the attributes which the breed is renown for, and have given the breed a modern slant by adding extra thickness and muscle to meet market demands. I feel Shorthorn breeders the world over should maybe take a look and perhaps sample the best of what Canada has to offer and put the Trumps and other fad type bulls on the top shelf for a while until they get back to seeing what real Shorthorn cattle look like. If you want to breed Maines breed Maines, or Rouge des Pres as they are now known in France. You guys know the joke...How do you get rid of a bad name?..........Change it! Big rough bone,hard calvings and bad udders  C'est le Rouge des Pres. Oops.....they'll be off down the deed poll office now!

 

[OH Breeder]

We are still very lucky in Ireland in that we still have a large quality of semen in storage at A.I. facilities throughout the country from bulls that are full Irish in their makeup. Unfortunately due to the success of certain bloodlines the breed came to a bottleneck over here genetically with many of the country's herds using similar bulls in their breeding programmes. Modern times have seen the introduction of genetics from Canada, the U.S., Australia and New Zealand with varying degrees of success. One of the big disadvantage of the American lines is that they seem to be totally focused at the Club Calf market. The result I feel is a lack of maternal attributes in the females. In Australia many breeders are breeding for slick coated red coloured cattle - definitely not what the market needs or wants this side of the globe. I have found some useful genetics in New Zealand but these have all been influenced heavily by Canadian genetics so why bother with a diluted version of what you want when you can get "the real deal" in it's original form from it's native land. Whilst not all Canadian cattle are ideal I feel the best Shorthorn cattle at the moment are indeed to be found in Canada. Breeders there seem to focus on the attributes which the breed is renown for, and have given the breed a modern slant by adding extra thickness and muscle to meet market demands. I feel Shorthorn breeders the world over should maybe take a look and perhaps sample the best of what Canada has to offer and put the Trumps and other fad type bulls on the top shelf for a while until they get back to seeing what real Shorthorn cattle look like. If you want to breed Maines breed Maines, or Rouge des Pres as they are now known in France. You guys know the joke...How do you get rid of a bad name?..........Change it! Big rough bone,hard calvings and bad udders  C'est le Rouge des Pres. Oops.....they'll be off down the deed poll office now!

Very well said sir. Great to see another perspective from abroad.

 

[sue]

Irish Shorthorn ... While I believe in breeding and selection of cattle . I dont think I would hop in a van and drive to canada for all of the shorthorn breed's answers. I think that some really outstanding breeders like GFS are in storage here in the states, maybe not active breeders but man have they left a large mark in particality.  I also think about the few Dover females in production at A&T and Peakview Ranch, Colorado.
DRC 101VM will and is probably the most over looked bull in the breed today.... Chad if you're reading I will be on your door step JUne 3rd.  Gosh the few "dover offspring"  I have viewed are just exteremly deep and scream "i want forage in my belly- please no corn" . No doubt I love my captain, but frankly look at what his sister's have created A&T Rawhide makes life alot easier in a very commerical setting for Galbreath. Dover are and have always had the 'eye on the ball' for commerical acceptance- something like 150 years? We have to applaud the few breeders that captured these genetics and will continue to breed em right. Ralph I am not leaving you out-

I just visited a herd in southwest Illinois- HUgh Moores. Older then dirt breeders-  some western canadian influence but a nice mix of beef cattle in production . I suppose they have you're vote, but they spoke very openly about the best and the ok of western canadian genes- for that I value. Please visit this herd- super feet and legs and very productive mamas and CF is a prefix in this herd. Again selection.

However on the other hand I had visited a herd  ( last fall) that used 100% western canadian genes and had 2 yr olds with no milk and exteremly bad udders. Oh yeah they looked thick and deep but the calves were starving. Mature cows that looked the same or fall backs into a fall program.

Gosh - say what ever you want about jakes proud jazz but Ohlde's know the beef business and shorthorn should take what ever piece they can get from this global icon. For the record I would hunt down every straw for Proud Leader I can find- for me hands down the better mama cows. 

Keith Lauer - sorry I doubt this is a herd you've traveled mr Irish Shorthorn?    ask any one defination of uniformity in Kansas.
  For that mater  Lovings screamed calving ease before alot of us?  For me more of the answers are right here in the states- obviously Rob Sneed, Meadowlane and Paul Clouse are on the short list but my list in the the states continues to get longer.

 

[JTM]

I agree that selection and performance history is key when it comes to Trump bloodlines, asterisk free, Maine Anjou, or any. That picture of the "Rouge des Pres" is the most pitiful thing I have seen. The fullblood maine bull that sired a couple of my better performing cows (calving ease, good udder and teat structure, good milkers) is night and day compared to that picture. This is just my experience with the Maine Anjou breed, I don't have very many years experience with them but my wife's family does and the purebred red/white maines on my farm wean more pounds than most of my shorthorns. Given, most of my shorthorns are Trump/show genetics on at least one side of the pedigree, but that is my point. The red/white maines I am using sure aren't hurting the maternal side of things when crossed with the mainstream shorthorn show genetics of the day. Now what if I am to take these maine anjou genetics, cross them with a Jake's Proud Jazz, Captain Obvious, or another "calving ease" shorthorn, and then come back with black angus? I think these cattle would sell good in about any arena.

For the record, my WHR Sonny daughters perform pretty well...

 

[shortyisqueen]

I also agree that the asterisk free is a marketing program but would ad that it is the fashionable pedigree curse in a new incarnation.

Truer words were never spoken.

 

[jaimiediamond]

We are still very lucky in Ireland in that we still have a large quality of semen in storage at A.I. facilities throughout the country from bulls that are full Irish in their makeup. Unfortunately due to the success of certain bloodlines the breed came to a bottleneck over here genetically with many of the country's herds using similar bulls in their breeding programmes. Modern times have seen the introduction of genetics from Canada, the U.S., Australia and New Zealand with varying degrees of success. One of the big disadvantage of the American lines is that they seem to be totally focused at the Club Calf market. The result I feel is a lack of maternal attributes in the females. In Australia many breeders are breeding for slick coated red coloured cattle - definitely not what the market needs or wants this side of the globe. I have found some useful genetics in New Zealand but these have all been influenced heavily by Canadian genetics so why bother with a diluted version of what you want when you can get "the real deal" in it's original form from it's native land. Whilst not all Canadian cattle are ideal I feel the best Shorthorn cattle at the moment are indeed to be found in Canada. Breeders there seem to focus on the attributes which the breed is renown for, and have given the breed a modern slant by adding extra thickness and muscle to meet market demands. I feel Shorthorn breeders the world over should maybe take a look and perhaps sample the best of what Canada has to offer and put the Trumps and other fad type bulls on the top shelf for a while until they get back to seeing what real Shorthorn cattle look like. If you want to breed Maines breed Maines, or Rouge des Pres as they are now known in France. You guys know the joke...How do you get rid of a bad name?..........Change it! Big rough bone,hard calvings and bad udders  C'est le Rouge des Pres. Oops.....they'll be off down the deed poll office now!

I of course am biased regarding Canadian Shorthorns as I sport a "Made in Canada" sweatshirt and enjoy looking at Canadian Shorthorns 365 days in a year.

With that said Good cattle have no borders. I have seen remarkable Shorthorn Cattle in Canada, the USA, Scotland, and of course pictures of Australian Shorthorns that proved themselves as we have offspring that are performing well! If we limit ourselves by saying "made in Canada" is the best label we miss out on some exceptional stock.

 

[Okotoks]

We are still very lucky in Ireland in that we still have a large quality of semen in storage at A.I. facilities throughout the country from bulls that are full Irish in their makeup. Unfortunately due to the success of certain bloodlines the breed came to a bottleneck over here genetically with many of the country's herds using similar bulls in their breeding programmes. Modern times have seen the introduction of genetics from Canada, the U.S., Australia and New Zealand with varying degrees of success. One of the big disadvantage of the American lines is that they seem to be totally focused at the Club Calf market. The result I feel is a lack of maternal attributes in the females. In Australia many breeders are breeding for slick coated red coloured cattle - definitely not what the market needs or wants this side of the globe. I have found some useful genetics in New Zealand but these have all been influenced heavily by Canadian genetics so why bother with a diluted version of what you want when you can get "the real deal" in it's original form from it's native land. Whilst not all Canadian cattle are ideal I feel the best Shorthorn cattle at the moment are indeed to be found in Canada. Breeders there seem to focus on the attributes which the breed is renown for, and have given the breed a modern slant by adding extra thickness and muscle to meet market demands. I feel Shorthorn breeders the world over should maybe take a look and perhaps sample the best of what Canada has to offer and put the Trumps and other fad type bulls on the top shelf for a while until they get back to seeing what real Shorthorn cattle look like. If you want to breed Maines breed Maines, or Rouge des Pres as they are now known in France. You guys know the joke...How do you get rid of a bad name?..........Change it! Big rough bone,hard calvings and bad udders  C'est le Rouge des Pres. Oops.....they'll be off down the deed poll office now!

I'm glad Canadian shorthorns are working for you. I think they have a lot to offer a lot different programs around the world. I know the Northern Legend's are working well so far in Australia along with several other Canadian bulls. Canadian genetics have worked well in Scotland and England over the past 25 years!
Here are some recent winners posted on alta Cedar's website!
May 17, 2011
Saskvalley Primo daughter wins in New Zealand!
A heifer sired by Saskvalley Primo 40P won the All Breeds Heifer Champion at the recent New Zealand Beef Expo. She beat out 24 heifers representing 5 other breeds including Angus, Simmental, Hereford and South Devon.
March 16, 2011
Samurai son wins Dubbo!
Jonathon & Sharlene Tink of Kilkee Shorthorns on their Champion Shorthorn Bull at The Dubbo Beef Spectacular in Australia, an 11 month old son of Alta Cedar Samurai 46T.
March 1, 2011
Alta Cedar Code Red son wins in Ireland!
Jude Benson, of Mullaghcor, Ballymote, on his Grand Champion Shorthorn at the recent Carrick-on-Shannon Bull Show & Sale in Ireland. The bull is a two year old son of Alta Cedar Code Red 24S.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Interestingly enough the Canadian bulls that were mentioned above are all non appendix options which brings this thread back on track.  Attached is a picture of Alta Cedar Code Red 24S, Northern Legend 3N and a picture  with his current EBVs, Saskvalley Primo 40P, and Alta Cedar Samurai 46T.

 

[brasky]

Does anybody have any calf reports on Alta Cedar Perfect Storm 11U??

 

[irishshorthorns]

Does anybody have any calf reports on Alta Cedar Perfect Storm 11U??

The first Perfect Storm calves have arrived here in Ireland and they have exceeded all expectation. They are just like their sire -  muscle and quality to use just two adjectives. We sold a lot of semen from him last year too and the feedback from other breeders is tremendous. Storm seems to be offering consistency in every herd where he has been sampled, and on cows of various different bloodlines which I feel highlights his quality as a sire.

 

[coyote]

How did the Perfect Storm calve's birth weights, compare to the other calves?

 

[irishshorthorns]

How did the Perfect Storm calves's birth weights, compare to the other calves?

One calf was an assisted birth. He was about 105 pounds. All the others were calved unassisted. We have heard of people using him on heifers calving down at two but personally I wouldn't use him on females that young. Whilst he appears as easy calving as any other bull I think you might get a larger calf if you use him on a female with a propensity to throw a big one.