Asterisk free shorthorn

[trevorgreycattleco]

Yep Doc, done debating with you. You dont see much IMO. ANYBODY WHO SELLS SHORTHORNS affects us all. After all, there isnt very many of us.  At least you r honest and tell folks you raise show cattle.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Doc have you ever tried any 7026 genetics? 034 genetics? I highly doubt it.  I have tried Trump seven ways from Sunday. This is how I form a opinion, I try it for myself.

 

[aj]

One thing that always bugged me about "purebred" breeders or showring purebred breeders is they didn't understand the industry. They look down on the commercial industry. They are better than commercial cattle. They like to think they are industry leaders. They think the industry should use what they produce. They don't ask what the industry wants. In our area its fun to go to a sale barn in say McCook, Nebraska and listen to people make light of the showring people. These are guys driving new pickups running 200 head of cows. These are salebarns that sell 1800$ bred heifers through their rings. These guys buy 5,000 bulls through commercially orientated herds. Seems like the Shorthorn breed currently is show ring based. Its not good or bad but its a fact. We as a breed constantly recycle showring kids through our youth programs. We train them to be showring orientated. Not once has a common sense kid who was last place in thenational heifer class(who understands the commercial world) gets elected a director at the junior level.  Bolz ran into the same buzzsaw. The commercial industry runs the country. It is massive. It creates alot of jobs. We run alot of commodities through these cattle. There is a surprisingly market in the club calf deal also. So both have there places. I think it is important to tell the truth though. I enjoy the debate even if its beating a dead horse. When the say shorties have their social events and have a committee to increase commercial industry they can't figure out why there breed is not used heavily. Alot of it is the black factor. Maybe its because the breed does have a bwt. problem. Maybe its because the bloodlines winning the show and taking the breed over are known to be hard keeping 1600# cows that have never been off a feed bucket. There is more debate about these issues discussed and cussed on this board that ever occurs in the national meetings. The show ring probably saved the shorthorn breed. Maybe th carriers saved the breed and made them popular with the club calf guys. I do like like to see the ivory tower guys get riled up when it is discovered that "the emperor has no clothes". It just completely blows their minds that the industry could probably get by without them. Its interesting to me anyway.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Well put AJ-Ive even  heard tell of black charolais-etc-ALSO,as an aside- my pedigree from further up  on the Deertrail Mona Lisa cow was wrong-she was sired by Guiness and out Nelco wild Lilly-making her very closely related to DCC Prophet-a bull that would go back to a ton of cattle in several countries,they had a full sister to Prophet-that was as good looking,moderate,and easy calving as any Angus cow you can find today O0

 

[jaimiediamond]

Why is it in every other shorthorn thread someone has to bring up Touchdown?  Do the irish cattle really need more color and more birthweight?  The fact that Touchdown has been mentioned here as a heifer bull totally astounds me! I happened to buy a potload of registered shorthorn cows that were all bred to Last Call sons.  I didnt like the fact that they were bred this way but there were some awesome cows in the group so I bit. These bulls would be paternal brothers to Touchdown.  For those of you who don't know already, Last Call is a Studers Pretender 96th out of a Rodeo Drive cow.  There is nothing light birthweight or calving ease about this pedigree, PERIOD.  I was extremely lucky that the cows I bought have pelvises like elephants because nearly all the calves I got from the Last Call bulls were humungous.  The largest one was 141 pounds at birth, granted out of a huge cow.  But it wasnt all the cow as I bred her back to a GFS Red Cloud 7026 son the first year and got a 88 pound heifer.  She had a 95 pound heifer this year out of JSF Allegiance.  Not small at 95 but definitely not no 141 pound freak!  Maybe Touchdown wasnt huge at birth, maybe he is out of a light birthweight cow.  But wouldnt that then be a fire and ice mating?  :-\

I personally love Touchdown X-[CAN]*16343- he isn't a bull I  would use on my program due to the fact he is appendix (which is why he wasn't introduced to this thread I would think ) With that being said he is a bull that is pleasing to the eye (Champion), and is consistently producing calves that are light birth weight, regardless of pedigree (fire and ice per say).  I do not at all find it shocking that Touchdown keeps coming up since he has so many awesome things going for him! What I don't understand why I haven't been "smacked" by anyone for posting RS DV 034 329 08 anytime someone asked about a calving ease bull. Perhaps its because those who dish out the most opinions are involved with him?

 

[aandtcattle]

Midol, anybody? ;D

 

[jaimiediamond]

Midol, anybody? ;D

I was thinking of recommending the same for you... Then I remembered your a man and in theory midol wouldn't help with your issues...  (thumbsup)

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Midol, anybody? ;D

I was thinking of recommending the same for you... Then I remembered your a man and in theory midol wouldn't help with your issues...  (thumbsup)//// (lol) (lol) (lol) (lol) (clapping) O0

 

[Doc]

Doc have you ever tried any 7026 genetics? 034 genetics? I highly doubt it.  I have tried Trump seven ways from Sunday. This is how I form a opinion, I try it for myself.

Nope, never have tried 7026. Tried his sire & wasn't real impresssed. Now if they could all look like the Lily 504 cow at Duis' , then it would be a different story. But she has that shot of Sonny in her. Why waste my time & money on trying something if I've seen that type & know that it's not I want? I'm not saying they are bad cattle , just not the type I want wandering my fields. I'm also not saying that a bull or cow with some of those bloodlines won't ever be found in Cottontown,TN. Just that if does, I either saw it in person or someone I really trust their opinion has said I need it & it's my type of animal. As far as debating with me goes, that's your right. I'm just not going to let something like this get me too cranked .

 

[JTM]

Wow, this thread really went in a lot of directions! Definitely a lot of opinions going back and forth. I like AJ's comment, "I do like like to see the ivory tower guys get riled up when it is discovered that "the emperor has no clothes". It just completely blows their minds that the industry could probably get by without them." Haha. Being fairly young I wanted to believe exactly what was being presented, that Heatwave really was 82 lbs and Solution calves average about 82 lbs. Haha, well the joke is on me apparently. When your heart and mind are commercially oriented like mine and you want to make the cattle you purchase prove themselves and perform, you get a few wake up calls in the process. My questions to Shorthorn show cattle people, which I am one of, are: Do you have a calf that looks like it is about 88lbs and you call it 88lbs. even though if you actually weighed the calf it would be 105? Do you induce to ensure the show calf lives and can be marketed? Do you always have to help the calf up because it is big and dumb? Are you assisting 50% or more of your heifers calving? Have you purchased a female from one of the "top maternal cow families in the breed" only to find out she doesn't milk and you had to pull her first two calves? If you answered yes to any of these questions are you really helping the Shorthorn breed to improve by not changing some of your breeding decisions? IMO, you are not. We all have to make a decision at some point, do we really care about the breed as a whole and it's survival in the real world or are we just having fun at the expense of hurting the future potential of a breed of cattle that could have SO much to offer?

Disclaimer: This post was not aimed at anyone in particular and it should be known that I am affiliated with the Trump Shorthorn Mafia and the Solid Red Shorthorn Mafia. P.S. Don't tell anyone I said these things!

 

[irishshorthorns]

JTM. I really enjoyed reading your post. I'm sure it had a few people squirming uncomfortably in their seats. You'll probably get some replies expressing deep indignation at the thought that these bastions of the breed who use hype to built an aura around themselves and their cattle have in truth absolutely nothing in the paddock and even less between the ears.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Well said Josh. You have a much better "no tension" kinda way of saying things. Where I wear my heart on my sleeve and the filter between my brain and mouth sometimes gets a huge hole in it. To all shorthorn breeders, I have no beef with anybody. I just want folks to look at the big picture and try to build this breed into something great. It can be done with time and hard work. There are lots of different options to start with. Not just the red cow mafia. Why just the other day I learned R N Reed has a few roan cows and even a few white ones! The red cow "Don" said it would be ok if he kept them. 

Meanwhile life is good, golf is on tv. ( My old stompin grounds at that. Muirfield Village was my first job out of high school. )

 

[aj]

I have heard 7026 sires better than his sire. I never liked his sire either.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Any semen on the older maine x breeding like Sodhouse Mr Man? Im looking for something different,thick,and reasonable on the calving O0

 

[aj]

I'm still breeding around mr mans daddies bwt issues.....5 generations later.

 

[aandtcattle]

Why is it in every other shorthorn thread someone has to bring up Touchdown?  Do the irish cattle really need more color and more birthweight?  The fact that Touchdown has been mentioned here as a heifer bull totally astounds me! I happened to buy a potload of registered shorthorn cows that were all bred to Last Call sons.  I didnt like the fact that they were bred this way but there were some awesome cows in the group so I bit. These bulls would be paternal brothers to Touchdown.  For those of you who don't know already, Last Call is a Studers Pretender 96th out of a Rodeo Drive cow.  There is nothing light birthweight or calving ease about this pedigree, PERIOD.  I was extremely lucky that the cows I bought have pelvises like elephants because nearly all the calves I got from the Last Call bulls were humungous.  The largest one was 141 pounds at birth, granted out of a huge cow.  But it wasnt all the cow as I bred her back to a GFS Red Cloud 7026 son the first year and got a 88 pound heifer.  She had a 95 pound heifer this year out of JSF Allegiance.  Not small at 95 but definitely not no 141 pound freak!  Maybe Touchdown wasnt huge at birth, maybe he is out of a light birthweight cow.  But wouldnt that then be a fire and ice mating?   :-\

Seeing A&T has brought up Touchdown in a thread about asterisk free Shorthorns, is a bit confusing, but seeing that I bred him and I am a partner with Shady Lane in owning him, I thought I should respond. Touchdown was an ET calf  that weighed 82 lbs at birth. I weighed him as soon as he was dry, and I was a bit surprised that his BW was that much as he looked pretty tiny. Even at birth he was a bit unique as he was smaller framed but was already showing more thickness than normal. He was only 2 months old, when he was sold to LA Land and Cattle Co, who were mainly in the Charolais and Limousin breeds but they also had a couple of Shorthorn females. Personally, I was a bit unsure about Touchdown at this age, but they insisted on wanting a price on him. They said they had never seen a calf of any breed that had so much natural muscle expression at such an early age, especially in his lower quarter.LA Land and Cattle, developed him and he went on to become Canadian National Champion bull in 2009. Shady Lane and ourselves decided to try to buy him back and it took a few months of dealing to get it done, but we eventually got him purchased. Guess this just proves again.... that some bloodlines can do different things in different places. Touchdown is a moderate framed bull that is maturing into a tremendously thick made sire. He may not be perfect, but I think he offers another piece of the puzzle in improving some traits in our cattle.

There are only a few bulls in any breed, that I consider to be true heifer bulls, as so many other factors can affect calving ease and birth weights. In the case lof Touchdown, we have only assisted one heifer at calving and it was a slight malpresentation, but this birth was assisted. In 2010, the heaviest Touchdown calf we had was 85 lbs and he was out of a Salute daughter.In 2011, we did have two TD calves that weighed 95 lbs out of cows. All his calves, with the exception of the one from a heifer were unassisted. I have had a number of people ask me if he can be used on heifers, and I am cautious to say " Yes" simply because of the many other factors involved, but I tell people that in my herd, I am using him on heifers, but I recommend a bit of caution, just like I would for many other sires.
Touchdown's color may not be for some breeders,but here in Canada, roans are beccoming more and more popular, I just delivered 4 light roan bulls to a commercial herd in Alberta to breed 120 black baldy heifers. Also in our herd, Last Call was extremely easy calving, and we have never had a calf even approach 100 lbs at birth. Looking back in my records, most were in the 80s and a few in the low 90s. They were definitely smaller framed and have a very good muscle pattern. His daughters are very moderate framed cows with excellent udders. I am hoping the Touchdown daughters are as good, and I think they will be. Touchdown's first bull calves, have developed into moderate framed bulls with lots of substance and they are easy fleshing. We have a bunch more this year, and we will see how they develop, but right now they are looking the same.
I would be the first to say that Touchdown is not a bull for every person to use. Here where I live, moderate framed red bulls are a bit tougher to sell, in fact that is all I have left in the  bull pen. That's why it is important to have genetic choices and we don't have to be all chasing the same thing

Yeah, Grant, since I responded to Tenenbaum's initial post about "Touchdown" on the appendix free thread, I am the one who brought him up.  Very good assessment, BRAVO!  I don't think I am alone when I say that I can only hope to acquire shorthorn intelligence comparable to yours so someday, I too can write mini-novels for all of my sp posts.

 

[Doc]

Yeah, Grant, since I responded to Tenenbaum's initial post about "Touchdown" on the appendix free thread, I am the one who brought him up.  Very good assessment, BRAVO!  I don't think I am alone when I say that I can only hope to acquire shorthorn intelligence comparable to yours so someday, I too can write mini-novels for all of my sp posts.

Glad to see you have some goals in life A& T. I hope you can obtain them. Because you are right , JIT has some serious Shorthorn history knowledge. I don't think I'm alone when I say that I enjoy & learn a lot from his posts'.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Yeah, Grant, since I responded to Tenenbaum's initial post about "Touchdown" on the appendix free thread, I am the one who brought him up.  Very good assessment, BRAVO!  I don't think I am alone when I say that I can only hope to acquire shorthorn intelligence comparable to yours so someday, I too can write mini-novels for all of my sp posts.

Glad to see you have some goals in life A& T. I hope you can obtain them. Because you are right , JIT has some serious Shorthorn history knowledge. I don't think I'm alone when I say that I enjoy & learn a lot from his posts'.

Its a very big goal for A&T! I agree though JIT has an unbelievable amount of knowledge regarding the Shorthorn breed, and a positive outlook regarding other peoples animals.  I have never seen him publicly trash herds like some of the other Shorthorn users.

 

[JTM]

I wish we all just tried a little harder not to personally attack each other but keep to the facts. "Can't we all just get along?"

I thought A&T's original post was appropriate and informative. Experience and honesty about the experience is knowledge. Political expediency does nothing for my program. 

 

[irishshorthorns]

I wish we all just tried a little harder not to personally attack each other but keep to the facts. "Can't we all just get along?"

I thought A&T's original post was appropriate and informative. Experience and honesty about the experience is knowledge. Political expediency does nothing for my program. 

If people want to breed hybred or mongrel cattle, let them. It just bugs me when they want to register them as part of a vanity project.