Asterisk free shorthorn

[brasky]

If you had the chance to use any asterisk free shorthorn bulls, which ones would they be?  Would like the semen to be somewhat available.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Deerpark Improver 2nd (Guiness) HS Instant Enticer- (lol) (lol) (lol) O0

 

[sue]

If you had the chance to use any asterisk free shorthorn bulls, which ones would they be?  Would like the semen to be somewhat available.

3 Bulls available through Cattle Visions -

A&T Captain Obvious, RS 329  and Muridale Buster 2nd. All solid Red polled bulls

 

[stumpy]

TM Gus 36S, also avaliable thru Cattle Visions as well as SEK, Shorthorn shop, and Bovine Elete

 

[turning grass into beef]

Saskvalley Ramrod 155R.  We like him a lot (but then, we are a little biased)
Semen available at Hawkeye Breeders in Iowa.

 

[oakview]

What are your reasons to use an asterisk free bull?  The Irish cattle really have no pedigrees, I'm not sure the one Enticer has is quite accurate, most of the Canadian cattle trace to Mandalong Super Flag (from Austrailia) and he wouldn't trace 100% to the old Shorthorns I grew up with and think of when I picture asterisk free cattle.  If your goal is to truly recreate the old Shorthorn, I'd get semen from Leader 21st or some of the other 60's bulls that still might be available.  Good luck finding a living cow of similar breeding, though.  I personally like the *s.  If they're good, you like them, and in the herdbook honestly, what's the difference if they have a star or not unless you're trying to preserve some long lost genetics?  In the early 60's, few people liked the x behind an animal's name.  There have been many times since, now included, when not many would look unless there was an x.  I guess if I was interested in a true asterisk free bull, I'd look for Leader 21 or similar bulls of his era or before.  There's some out there if you look hard enough.  Good luck!

 

[justintime]

this could be a real can of worms but I will add my agreement to what oakview has said here. The term asterisk free that we hear so much in the Shorthorn breed is really a misnomer, when it is used to call cattle with no asterisk on their pedigrees, purebred Shorthorn. Many of the Shorthorns with asterisks on their pedigree are as pure or purer in Shorthorn blood as those which are asterisk free. If you have studied pedigrees for any length of time, this is absolutely plain. Here is Canada this is even more evident. Sires like Ayatalloh is actually about 5/8 Shorthorn blood ( or just a hair past being a half blood) when you research his pedigree. Many more milking Shorthorns have been allowed in the Closed herdbook as purebreds that have red and White Holstein, or Norwegian Red, in them. And then there are the Irish Shorthorns. Almost all of today's so called Asterisk free Shorthorns have some Irish in their genetic make-up somewhere. Were the Irish cattle purebreds? Possibly some were but the majority were grades, with no pedigrees whatsoever. Many of the Irish breeders purchased their herd sires from local auction marts, not knowing what they were. The bull Clare Man,( who sired Deerpark Improver, was purchased from a local auction barn in the County Clare, and the Quane's named him Clare Man. It is generally suspected that Clare Man was a Galloway cross, and that is is how TH came into the Shorthorn breed, as TH was first found in Galloway cattle.
I was involved in some of the first importations of Irish Shorthorns from Ireland. When we purchased our first 4 head in Ireland, they had no pedigrees.... period. We decided we wanted to import them even if we could never register any of the offspring. When we got them here, breeders urged us to try to get some registration status as they wanted to try them. We were successful in getting them allowed into the appendix herdbook here in Canada, but for three years, the American Shorthorn Association refused to allow the Irish cattle to be registered at any level. The reason the ASA refused to register them was because the Irish breeders could not document any kind of pedigree for most of them, and many of the pedigrees they did provide were made up as they went along. As I have mentioned before, I asked three Irish breeders about the pedigree of one female and was given three totally different pedigrees.
Two years after we got appendix status for the Irish cattle, some breeders made a Notice of Motion to the CSA to allow the Irish cattle into the Closed herdbook in Canada. My partners and myself, were totally against this happening, as we knew full well that these cattle were appendix at best and more likely truly grades, and I travelled to Vancouver to be able to speak on this motion and try to leave these cattle where they were in the appendix herd book. I was the only opposing vote and it passed. So, IMO, the term asterisk free is a totally man made term, and it doesn't refer to any degree of purity. As I have also mentioned previously, I was researching an asterisk free pedigree a few years ago, and I came across a Half |Simmental female I purchased in|Ontario in 1973. So, what I am saying is many mkistakes have been made in the past. |I really don't care whether a pedigree is asterik free or not and I applaud anyone who documents the heritage honestly. Good cattle are good cattle regardless of the staus on gthe registratiion paper.

 

[feeder duck]

Deerpark Improver 2nd (Guiness) HS Instant Enticer- (lol) (lol) (lol) O0

Most expensive Shorthorn steer I ever bought was a Guiness from Deertrail sale $3000 in 1980 or so. Best bull calf  I ever seen as a kid was a Guiness at Rodger Applegates in Iowa. Brentwood Guiness. They can be a bit off in there hip structure. Maybe a better bull was Duke of Dublin. Thanks Mark for the flashback!!

Jeff

 

[sue]

If you had the chance to use any asterisk free shorthorn bulls, which ones would they be?  Would like the semen to be somewhat available.

Brasky
I see the demand in asterisk free bulls on a daily basis. Not trying to stir the "wasps nest" breed any shorthorn to what you want to.
Feel free to email for an entire list of solid proven asterisk free bulls that will be released later this summer.  Many of the bulls collected now (8 to 12)- just waiting for photos. Bulls raised in commerical settings with full time cattlemen operations. Happy to see your interests in shorthorn regardless.

 

[irishshorthorns]

The assertion that the Irish Shorthorns had Galloway blood stemming from the Deerpark herd is the biggest load of twaddle. There were NO Galloway cattle worth mentioning on the island of Ireland, let alone above all places the province of Munster where the Deerpark herd was located. And Mark you can count your blessings that the Irish cattle got to your side of the Atlantic or else the breed would probably have been relegated to rare breed status. Whilst the Irish cattle may not have had RECORDED pedigrees  they would have been as pure as anything registered in Coates or the main section of the Canadian herd book. Looking at the photographs of the belt buckle type cattle that were prevelant at that time it's no wonder the breed lost it's standing with the commercial cattle men. In truth they had become small, dumpy and non-functional. Over this side of the water in the UK the British breeders took the easy option and crossed their pedigree full blood cattle directly to full blood Maine Anjous. Why? Simply it was a quick fix way of getting a bit of size back into the breed, and as a bonus the Maine Anjou breed was on the way out in the UK so the Beef Shorthorn breeders of the time were able to purchase Maine cattle for next to nothing. What they should have done was source the bigger functional Shorthorn cattle in Australia, Canada and the USA and work to improve the breed using these genetics but they chose the lazy cheap option. When I am sourcing outcross genetics I always try to find asterix free cattle that are what the breed is all about.....maternal traits and hopefully the male calves that won't make bulls will grade well and pay well when they are slaughtered. To this end I have imported semen from 2 Eionmor bulls and four Alta Cedar bulls directly in to Ireland in recent times, the most recent of these being Alta Cedar Perfect Storm 11U.

 

[brasky]

Everybody seems to be in search of the new "outcross" shorthorn bull to use.  CF Trump has had a huge impact in the breed and people either love him, or hate him.  Double Stuff made a big splash with the club calf world, but he didn't last very long when the genetic defects came out.  Now the latest craze is jpj beacuse of leader 21.  I think those three pedigrees have value to those individuals that seek those genetics.  I asked about asterisk free bulls because they would probably not be considered "main stream" shorthorn genetics.  I don't know much about the bulls that were imported from Ireland or Australia.  Just wondering if those genetics should be tapped back into?

 

[justintime]

My point in the previous post I made was that I feel we need to concentrate on quality and not be so concerned with asterisk or no asterisk. I say this because there have been so many human mistakes made over the years on both sides of the issue. In regards to my comment about Clare Man, I used the words " generally accepted" on purpose, and it was Irish breeders who first made these comments to me. The first time I heard this story was in 1973 when we were importing our first cattle from Ireland. I heard it a few more times over the years. Whether it is right or wrong, my point is that some of these cattle had no pedigree to speak of. I am not bashing these cattle, as I will agree that the Irish cattle saved the Shorthorn breed from basic extinction in North America.Some of my favorite animals that I have ever owned, came from Ireland.  I still have full Irish cows and am planning to expand the number of Irish cows in my herd, and I am flushing some full Irish cows to full Irish sires. I am doing this simply because I feel that they offer this breed a very valuable set of genetics . I also feel that many of the Irish lines such as those in the Deerpark and Highfield herds could be almost lost if someone doesn't maintain some of them.
In regards to brasky's question, my answer is that there are definitely some bulls from the past that should tapped into again. Just be careful which ones you select, and this is no different than selecting a bull to use today. Some people are so obsessed with old genetics that they will use anything from the past. As I said in a previous thread, some of these genetics should be remembered and used again, and some were bad then and are bad now. I think the best cattle I have produced in quite awhile have resulted from using some sires of the 60s and 70s on females from today's leading genetics. For example, I think the most interesting set of ET calves I have had in many years resulted from a flush of B Good Red Sue 1P to Pheasant Creek Leader 4th ( who was born in 1968 and was sired by Kinnaber Leader 6th). I am not certain what genetics from the past are available in the US other than some like Leader 21 and his sons like Leader 9th. I have a fair collection of semen from the 60s and 7os and I plan to blend some of these bloodlines together.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Deerpark Improver 2nd (Guiness) HS Instant Enticer- (lol) (lol) (lol) O0

Most expensive Shorthorn steer I ever bought was a Guiness from Deertrail sale $3000 in 1980 or so. Best bull calf  I ever seen as a kid was a Guiness at Rodger Applegates in Iowa. Brentwood Guiness. They can be a bit off in there hip structure. Maybe a better bull was Duke of Dublin. Thanks Mark for the flashback!!///Im gonna use him again-love the females-but you are right about the hip-and they have alot of brisquit-but they really are good from the right female.

Jeff

 

[scotland]

Interesting what  we all call astrisk free, did a bit of looking in the herd books, on 2 of the bulls listed in this thread, both carry 6 and 10 crosses to Highfield Irish Mist, Deerpark Improver, Dividen, Ayatollah, Illawara, g-9 , Super Flag, Super Elephant, Enticer, Weston and the list continues, I am with Justintime, raise the kind of cattle that you enjoy and can make money on... work with ultra sound data as it cannot be manipuated as can EPD's.

 

[Okotoks]

Interesting what  we all call astrisk free, did a bit of looking in the herd books, on 2 of the bulls listed in this thread, both carry 6 and 10 crosses to Highfield Irish Mist, Deerpark Improver, Dividen, Ayatollah, Illawara, g-9 , Super Flag, Super Elephant, Enticer, Weston and the list continues, I am with Justintime, raise the kind of cattle that you enjoy and can make money on... work with ultra sound data as it cannot be manipuated as can EPD's.

Pretty interesting. It amuses me how people talk about fire and ice matings. ??? In actual fact you can mate two animals of different lines and often get a consistent breeder depending what actual genes he gets from the mating. One of the most heavily promoted Shorthorn bulls  on SP has to be considered a "fire and ice mating" yet he is a consistent breeder.
Some of the greatest and most prolific bulls in the history of the breed were "fire and ice" matings. At one point most of the popular cattle in North America were Bates bred and when crossed with Cruikshank bulls the resulting progeny dominated the shows for years. Look at some of the leading Show Steer sires they are definitely "fire and ice".

 

[dhs]

I would have to go with KA'BA Double Leader. We have been using this bull on heifers with great success and you don't seem to loose any quality and matches up well with many of the popular genetics of today. I know he's old school but shorthorn breeder don't have the options they had a decade ago, so why not try him. Joel Brooks is currently selling semen on him at $25/unit and its easily available.

 

[justintime]

You also have to keep in mind that a non appendix Shorthorn in Canada, for example, can be an appendix animal is some other country.This is also true in reverse, in that there are lots and lots of non appendix animals in the US, Australia, and Britain that are appendix in Canada. Here is a classic example. Glennill IMF is an Australian bull that has sired some great cattle in several countries. Waukaru is using him in their herd, as are breeders in several other countries. IMF is registered as non appendix in the US, Australia and Britain. In Canada he will be registered at 75%. Another classic example is Dunbeacon Venture who is considered non appendix in every country but Canada as a non appendix bull. In Canada he is an appendix bull and just recently was moved to a higher percentage of purity and now both his sons and daughters are high enough purity to be shown and sold in breed sanctioned shows and sales.
It boggles my mind when I think back as to how many of the decisions were made as to what goes into the closed herd book and what goes to the Appendix herd book. The bloodlines like Ayatollah ( who was a glorified half blood) were put into the Canadian herd book at the blink of an eye, as were the Irish cattle, some of which had no pedigrees whatsoever. When I was on the CSA board, it took a considerable lobby to keep the Salers breed from being included in the CSA closed herd book. Prior to this the Lincoln Red were dumped into the CSA herd book as purebreds... so basically we have a real dogs breakfast!!! The errors of the past are just that errors. IMO, we need to concentrate on developing better cattle and adding to our commercial market share. In regards to selling commercial bulls, I have sold over 200 bulls in the past decade, and I have not had a single commercial man ask if the bull had an asterisk on his paper or not. They look at quality and calving and performance data.

In Denver this past January, there were numerous Canadians interested in bidding on bulls in both the yards and in the sale on the hill. I had 8 Canadian breeders ask me to try to help them figure lout what percentage some bulls would be in the Canadian herd book. i could not be certain about many of them. It has become a real mess!

 

[Okotoks]

Here is a classic example. Glennill IMF is an Australian bull that has sired some great cattle in several countries. Waukaru is using him in their herd, as are breeders in several other countries. IMF is registered as non appendix in the US, Australia and Britain. In Canada he will be registered at 75%.

I agree that there are some strange things happening in most of the herd books but I think the way we accept animals into the CSA today is pretty consistent since some changes to our constitution a few years ago.I think all buyers should research pedigrees to see if they meet their own requirements. The term asterix free is pretty misleading sometimes . It's a lot easier to regulate now that the Milking animals have seperated into their own herd book. They were the ones that originally wanted the Illawara included which left the door open for Ayatollah to get in.
Glenell IMF's dam only has half a pedigree. Here it is the link. How could he be registered as a 100% in the ASA herd book when the Dover cattle can't even get registered without a bunch of red tape and even then not always? ???

http://abri.une.edu.au/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=313021&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5C255B5A21582F2E2D

 

[justintime]

Here is a classic example. Glennill IMF is an Australian bull that has sired some great cattle in several countries. Waukaru is using him in their herd, as are breeders in several other countries. IMF is registered as non appendix in the US, Australia and Britain. In Canada he will be registered at 75%.

I agree that there are some strange things happening in most of the herd books but I think the way we accept animals into the CSA today is pretty consistent since some changes to our constitution a few years ago.I think all buyers should research pedigrees to see if they meet their own requirements. The term asterix free is pretty misleading sometimes . It's a lot easto regulate now that the Milking animals have seperated into their own herd book. They were the ones that originally wanted the Illawara included which left the door open for Ayatollah to get in.
Glenell IMF's dam only has half a pedigree. Here it is the link. How could he be registered as a 100% in the ASA herd book when the Dover cattle can't even get registered without a bunch of red tape and even then not always? ???

http://abri.une.edu.au/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=313021&2=2434&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5C255B5A21582F2E2D

Dan, I have no problem with the way the CSA is determining purity. In fact, IMO, the CSA does it correctly. The problem \I see is that almost every other Shorthorn registry is doing this differently, and it is becoming a total nightmare when you are trying to look at genetics from another country. I'm concerned that it will only become a bigger problem in the future. I already know of people who have purhcased what they thought were PB heifers in the US and found out that they could not even show them in Canada. I don't know what the answer is, as I am certain none of the other countries are interested in changing to the same as we have.

 

[aandtcattle]

Well folks, you can talk all you want about how it doesnt matter one way or another if an animal has an asterisk or not.  But to me it does matter- for 2 reasons.  I have had cows with asterisks and I have had asterisk free cows and maybe it is purely coincidince but the asterisk free cows do noticeably better in my environment.  You can ask anybody who has ever been to my place that most of the "skinny cows" carry an asterisk. 
I have also used a lot of shorthorn bulls on my angus and crossbred cows and have received much more heterosis from the asterisk free bulls used on these "non-shorthorn cows.  I attribute this to the added purity of the asterisk-free bulls as it is a true F1 calf I get as a result of breeding purebred angus cows to an asterisk-free, non diluted shorthorn bull.  I am talking about a 45-50 pound advantage at weaning by using an asterisk free shorthorn bull versus other sires.  This is not isolated to 1 or 2 sires either, and no, the asterisk free bulls that I have used would not be considered "extreme growth" or "large framed" sires, it's gotta be the purity!