at the end of the rope

[chambero]

A mean one is a mean one, but Somebody that has purportedly been in a show cattle family for generations would laugh at ornery ones nowadays compared to the days of true chis when about 9/10 would rather eat you than the feed you gave them.

I bet Ug had a heck of time getting a halter on a triceratops the first time.

 

[Freddy]

Bloodlines can tell you a lot on  some of these calves ,because it in there from way back ....I don't know why people buy from these pasture sales where  they have not made an attempt to see how they handle and that's why they sell them that way ....We try our best to have them so people don't have a wreck .....

 

[vc]

Freddy I am going to guess pasture sales started when the traders where out there trying to get a jump on the competition. Plus the difference in cost, If your selling 50 head or more and have a sale with an auctioneer, feed the people, and prep the calves your cost per animal is greatly increased.
My oldest worked for the ranch we get our calves from for 2 months for their sale, he worked 6 days a week rinsing calves from sunup to sunset, as he was doing that there were 2 people clipping during the week and 4 on Saturday, the week prior to the sale there were at least 6 people clipping, and they had 10 people working calves the day of the sale. They served a tri-tip dinner the night prior to the sale and tri-tip sandwiches they day of the sale along with beverages.
It has to be easier and cheaper to take people out to the pasture and let them sort through them.
I don't thank they do it to hide the wild ones.

 

[CAB]

I've been following along with this thread for the past few days and I hope that 4-H Mom gets some type of resolution worked out with the seller, but @ the same time if PPL are involved with showing calves for any amount of time you will eventually run across a calf that is better off turned loose or put in a freezer. Over the last 30/40 years we have had to give up on approximately 6 head give or take 1 or 2 either way. It has changed over the years as far as what these "show calves" are costing, but you are going to have the occasional "tough" one. Again I hope that there can be some type of settlement in this case, but let this just be a reminder to us all that there are really no guarantees.

 

[sackshowcattle]

I would actually prefer to buy from pasture sales. Some of the methods used in the past that I'm sure some still use today mess calves up and make them hard to train. Dope only helps while they are on it, Tractors or trucks dragging them only teach then that they can't get away while attached to a heavy object and to fight the rope, If you tie to a post and  let them fight the rope they learn to fight the rope, if they lower their head and get away they learn to do that to get away.  I got a video a few years back on breaking calves in a half hour in a trailer and it changed my whole perspective. I have had calves break in a day and some that take a couple weeks. I never tie one up till they are leading and understand that if they don't fight there is no pressure on their head. When first breaking I actually reach down and loosen the lower rope after they give me a step and  go further from there. what the key to it is you have to have a small enough breaking pen they cant drag you or get away and that they are comfortable with you near them before ever putting a halter on. I don't know what was done prior to the original posters purchase or at their home so its hard to know at what point the problem started, but at this point there is one method that will help if they want to train the calf. Find a local donkey that has broken calves. That is my final hail mary pass that I use. your not doing something to the calf the donkey is with its own mind. As far as not being able to break one, It hasn't been fun sometimes but I haven't had one yet I couldn't break. the worst was a calf years back that was doped before I bought him. Got him home and he tried to kill you flat out run until you jumped the fence and he would hit it. had the vet out he gave me some ace and told me to use it to take the edge off after 2 times he was worse. The drugs gave him a negative side effect when he came down from them. Then tried tractor and tying to a post he was still to dangerous. I ended up letting him live in my trailer for 4 months before he stepped out of it again so I could lock him in the front or back and feed and water safely in the other half. Finally after just talking to him and petting him through the trailer for that long he was calm enough to let you get in a pen with him. It was a full time job 6 to 8 hours a day before and after school. To teach him to lead my cousin had a bigger calf that was puppy dog tame that we used a heavy horse tie down  between the 2 calves and walked together. Thats were I seen the value in owning a donkey. They are tougher and you don't risk wrecking a tame calf. That calf was fine and actually quiet at fair once broke but it took from October to the start of july to break all the bad habits and issues he had. Easiest calf I broke I weaned and loaded into the trailer hauled up in front of her pen. About 45 minutes later I walked out of the trailer into the pen with her and there was no fear or fighting. It is 1000 times harder to break a bad habit then start right.

 

[Tallcool1]

I would actually prefer to buy from pasture sales. Some of the methods used in the past that I'm sure some still use today mess calves up and make them hard to train. Dope only helps while they are on it, Tractors or trucks dragging them only teach then that they can't get away while attached to a heavy object and to fight the rope, If you tie to a post and  let them fight the rope they learn to fight the rope, if they lower their head and get away they learn to do that to get away.  I got a video a few years back on breaking calves in a half hour in a trailer and it changed my whole perspective. I have had calves break in a day and some that take a couple weeks. I never tie one up till they are leading and understand that if they don't fight there is no pressure on their head. When first breaking I actually reach down and loosen the lower rope after they give me a step and  go further from there. what the key to it is you have to have a small enough breaking pen they cant drag you or get away and that they are comfortable with you near them before ever putting a halter on. I don't know what was done prior to the original posters purchase or at their home so its hard to know at what point the problem started, but at this point there is one method that will help if they want to train the calf. Find a local donkey that has broken calves. That is my final hail mary pass that I use. your not doing something to the calf the donkey is with its own mind. As far as not being able to break one, It hasn't been fun sometimes but I haven't had one yet I couldn't break. the worst was a calf years back that was doped before I bought him. Got him home and he tried to kill you flat out run until you jumped the fence and he would hit it. had the vet out he gave me some ace and told me to use it to take the edge off after 2 times he was worse. The drugs gave him a negative side effect when he came down from them. Then tried tractor and tying to a post he was still to dangerous. I ended up letting him live in my trailer for 4 months before he stepped out of it again so I could lock him in the front or back and feed and water safely in the other half. Finally after just talking to him and petting him through the trailer for that long he was calm enough to let you get in a pen with him. It was a full time job 6 to 8 hours a day before and after school. To teach him to lead my cousin had a bigger calf that was puppy dog tame that we used a heavy horse tie down  between the 2 calves and walked together. Thats were I seen the value in owning a donkey. They are tougher and you don't risk wrecking a tame calf. That calf was fine and actually quiet at fair once broke but it took from October to the start of july to break all the bad habits and issues he had. Easiest calf I broke I weaned and loaded into the trailer hauled up in front of her pen. About 45 minutes later I walked out of the trailer into the pen with her and there was no fear or fighting. It is 1000 times harder to break a bad habit then start right.

Excellent advice.

What was the video you got?

 

[DL]

As far as not being able to break one, It hasn't been fun sometimes but I haven't had one yet I couldn't break. the worst was a calf years back that was doped before I bought him. Got him home and he tried to kill you flat out run until you jumped the fence and he would hit it. had the vet out he gave me some ace and told me to use it to take the edge off after 2 times he was worse. The drugs gave him a negative side effect when he came down from them. Then tried tractor and tying to a post he was still to dangerous. I ended up letting him live in my trailer for 4 months before he stepped out of it again so I could lock him in the front or back and feed and water safely in the other half. Finally after just talking to him and petting him through the trailer for that long he was calm enough to let you get in a pen with him. It was a full time job 6 to 8 hours a day before and after school. To teach him to lead my cousin had a bigger calf that was puppy dog tame that we used a heavy horse tie down  between the 2 calves and walked together. Thats were I seen the value in owning a donkey. They are tougher and you don't risk wrecking a tame calf. That calf was fine and actually quiet at fair once broke but it took from October to the start of july to break all the bad habits and issues he had. Easiest calf I broke I weaned and loaded into the trailer hauled up in front of her pen. About 45 minutes later I walked out of the trailer into the pen with her and there was no fear or fighting. It is 1000 times harder to break a bad habit then start right.

You bought a mean calf that was drugged (apparently) when you bought him. He tried to kill you. You drugged him, unsuccessfully, you tied him to a tractor then tied him to a post and he was still dangerous and mean so you locked him in a trailer for 4 months - nine months total of questional human behavior toward an animal - all so you could show him at the fair. From an animal welfare standpoint this is so wrong and we actually wonder why people question how we treat the animals we raise for food

 

[sackshowcattle]

don't remember the video I had to send a check to the guy because they couldn't even take credit cards. Yes I did what the vet, ffa and 4-h advisors suggested. The trailer was my Idea. He had food, water and buy shifting him back and forth bedding changed daily. My idea was better than what supposed Mentors and authority figures suggested. This was probably about 20 years ago I was only 13 or 14 at the time and that was the norm back then. A local metal fabricator even sold a three point attachment to drag calves with tractors to keep them from getting into the wheels. I know a few people that had to put flat beds on their trucks from calves denting them. That was the only calf I bought at the nwss from a trader in the yards. I never have bought one again I either toured the ranch and bought out of the field or raised my own from there on out. the year after that I started purchasing my herd and haven't looked back. 

 

[Tallcool1]

don't remember the video I had to send a check to the guy because they couldn't even take credit cards. Yes I did what the vet, ffa and 4-h advisors suggested. The trailer was my Idea. He had food, water and buy shifting him back and forth bedding changed daily. My idea was better than what supposed Mentors and authority figures suggested. This was probably about 20 years ago I was only 13 or 14 at the time and that was the norm back then. A local metal fabricator even sold a three point attachment to drag calves with tractors to keep them from getting into the wheels. I know a few people that had to put flat beds on their trucks from calves denting them. That was the only calf I bought at the nwss from a trader in the yards. I never have bought one again I either toured the ranch and bought out of the field or raised my own from there on out. the year after that I started purchasing my herd and haven't looked back.
[/quote

Great story, and your determination is amazing.

I agree...that was normal back then, your point being that things have changed! Back then we could buy Ace' in a granular form and actually FEED IT!  I can't remember for sure, but I believe it was sold at Farm Supply stores!!

Many changes, and although that treatment may not be the usual today...your story is a great example of determination and effort! 

 

[4-h mom]

first thank you all ..i have enjoyed reading all the comments here..the good the bad, agree or dont agree, even the ones that went off on there own.(lol) i wish i could have reply to all of them, but just haven't had time .
my daughter is feeling better thankfully, she is tough and im very proud of her.

now that i had time to think, it dosent change how i feel.

IT is what it is, we have this crazy calf. period. im not trying to find fault or blame anyone im just at this point that as a producer did they know and what are they gonna do about it.
my daughter is very competitive, shes paid her dues and wanted to"step up" in the showring. I dont feel theres anything wrong with that so we did.before we have bought from the same breeder for years and had no  problem with his honesty over calves. Also hes not at the level she wants to go to. and hes honest about that, he also encouraged her to go somewhere else .  Im a leader in our club, Of course we take the time to know who can handle what and and who cannot, because in my opinion a safe kid(lol safe eveyone and me) is the most important thing. We are not just one and done show people. Its what we do. Im always  looking for animals for kids so anyone that gets our business is lucky. ( and boy have i seen alot)

No we dont drug them either, our last show is county and its terminal. my children also know where their animals end up and a drugged steer hitting the auction block dosent work for us. They know selling a meat product going to the dinner table is more important then a belt buckle.

Our steer super is aware and he along with the livestock committee(which im a part)will make the final decsion;
if we can make it to county in march great. she s upset about the other shows and jackpots she cant make but she will deal with that. bottom line I WILL NOT take a crazy animal to show. Nobody wins in that deal.
Ps still waiting on a return to my calls.

 

[bellaangus]

(clapping)
It's a matter of perspective on things. Thank you for the polite sharing of information on Thorazine from those kind enough to politely give it. I don't like to be jumped by people over asking questions. How do we learn anything if we don't ask? We teach our children to ask questions and I do the same myself. What is the point of a forum otherwise? I also share the information with my family. We haven't used it. It was suggested, I didn't know anything about it so I started researching it. I have found that it is illegal but not the why of it. I understand that if a drug impacts the meat like Ace or the milk that would make sense. I have done quite a bit of reading on Thorazine and so far have not found that to be the case. I have found that it impacts the brain. I have read the side affects on many reputable websites. I have asked industry people why it's banned but it's been banned for so long that they don't know the why of it just that it is. Please POLITELY direct me to where I can find this information. I thank you. It doesn't mean we will use it, I just like to understand.

A big thank you to sackshowcattle for sharing the story and also illustrating how practices have changed over time. We've been told to use some of those techniques by older trainers. The newer trainers are definitely using the techniques that worked for you.

I'd also like to share that we have a terrific FFA group that is working hard to help us. They are a great support and much appreciated. In addition, I've reached out to our Angus rep because he's outstanding and very knowledgeable. He, too, is helping us out as much as possible. There's so much support in the show/cattle industry and I'm so appreciative. It's an incredible industry. Many thanks to you all!

 

[chambero]

Thorazine was never "banned" for use in cattle because it was never approved for use in animals to begin with.  Thorazine (chlorpromazine) was developed and is approved for use in humans.  Acepromazine was originally developed and used in humans back in the 50s but was largely replaced by Thorazine.  Veterinarians can legally prescribe both for use in animals, but apparently not food animals, although many veterinarians do use and prescribe it for use in cattle.  There is another, less known, but longer acting drug out there called fluphenazine that falls in the same category.  There isn't a nickels worth of difference in "risk" associated with using any of the three.

There is not enough of a demand for these drugs in food animals for those companies to have justified the expense for having them go through the trials for FDA approval in food animals. That is why they are "illegal".  Veterinarians (meaning the ones I use and have asked about this since DL first brought the issue up years ago) commonly reason that if they were developed for humans in the first place, there is essentially no risk to potential future consumers of meat, especially when common sense is applied in their infrequent use relative to a potential slaughter date.

That being said, it is still technically wrong to use them on cattle that might be eaten someday.

 

[DL]

(clapping)
It's a matter of perspective on things. Thank you for the polite sharing of information on Thorazine from those kind enough to politely give it. I don't like to be jumped by people over asking questions. How do we learn anything if we don't ask? We teach our children to ask questions and I do the same myself. What is the point of a forum otherwise? I also share the information with my family. We haven't used it. It was suggested, I didn't know anything about it so I started researching it. I have found that it is illegal but not the why of it. I understand that if a drug impacts the meat like Ace or the milk that would make sense. I have done quite a bit of reading on Thorazine and so far have not found that to be the case. I have found that it impacts the brain. I have read the side affects on many reputable websites. I have asked industry people why it's banned but it's been banned for so long that they don't know the why of it just that it is. Please POLITELY direct me to where I can find this information. I thank you. It doesn't mean we will use it, I just like to understand.

This is from an earlier post - actually March 2012 - it explains what ELDU and AMDUCA mean and why -  you can search SP and find others on the topic of ELDU and AMDUCA - if you (generic) raise animals for food you  (generic) really need to be aware of the laws regarding the use of drugs in these animals. Also https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Reference/Pages/AMDUCA.asp

By the way Thorazine and Acepromazine are related psychotropic drugs of the phenothiazine family - neither is approved for use in cattle (or other food animals). If you have specific questions let me know


http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=37866.msg327932#msg327932
 
Re: ACEPROMAZINE
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 12:06:29 PM »
 
Quote from: GoWyo on March 09, 2012, 10:42:00 AM
JDM said it was a "sale heifer."  If it is one for sale, then there is a question of whether it is ethical to tranq it and not disclose to buyer that the animal goes nuts in the grooming chute.  That being said, with as many cattle as ACE has been used on it would seem that it has been thoroughly tested enough to pass AMDUCA and ELDU by now.  Have there ever been clinical studies on ACE in cattle?  Maybe it is the variability of dosage that prevents labeling for use in cattle.

DL, can you enlighten us on why ACE is not approved for cattle from a vet medicine standpoint rather than the legal labeling standpoint, which most people are aware of?


GOWYO The rules on drugs used for the animals we produce for food are complicated, unevenly enforced, and often not intuitively sensible. The vet med standpoint and the legal standpoint are pretty well intertwined.  Drugs approved for use in cattle have been tested, withhold and withdrawals determined, and efficacy assessed. Once they meet certain requirements they are approved for the specific species tested, for the route of administration, the dose and the conditions used. So if you look at Banamine it is not approved for pain management in cattle, but it is approved for for fever, if we use it for pain management technically we need to meet all the requirements for ELDU and AMDUCA. Since it is approved (for a different use) in cattle we know that if we give it in the approved manner (which happens to be IV) then we know exactly what the meat withhold is for the drug and we will not end up with violative residues.

The bottom line is that some drugs are approved for use in cattle - for example over the counter tetracycline - if it is used exactly according to the label there is no problem HOWEVER, if the farmer decides to increase the dose above the label does that falls under the Extra Label Drug Use policy (ELDU) which (by law) required certain things.

Any drug approved for use  in human or equine or canine etc that is not approved for use in cattle can only be used if the ELDU requirements are met  - medical grade DMSO, acepromazine, etc are NOT approved for use in cattle and therefor can only be used (legally) if ELDU requirements are met - you will note that drugs can be used only for therapeutic purposes (animal's health is suffering or threatened) - tranquilizing a heifer in a chute to clip her does not meet ELDU requirements and is therefor technically illegal.

ELDU REQUIREMENTS FOR USE
ELDU is permitted only by or under the supervision of a veterinarian.
ELDU is allowed only for FDA approved animal and human drugs.
A valid Veterinarian/Client/Patient Relationship is a prerequisite for all ELDU.
ELDU for therapeutic purposes only (animal's health is suffering or threatened). Not drugs for production use.
Rules apply to dosage form drugs and drugs administered in water. ELDU in feed is prohibited.
ELDU is not permitted if it results in a violative food residue, or any residue which may present a risk to public health.
FDA prohibition of a specific ELDU precludes such use.

There are also record and label requirements

RECORD REQUIREMENTS

    Identify the animals, either as individuals or a group.
    Animal species treated.
    Numbers of animals treated.
    Conditions being treated.
    The established name of the drug and active ingredient.
    Dosage prescribed or used.
    Duration of treatment.
    Specified withdrawal, withholding, or discard time(s), if applicable, for meat, milk, eggs, or animal-derived food.
    Keep records for 2 years.
    FDA may have access to these records to estimate risk to public health.

LABEL REQUIREMENTS

    Name and address of the prescribing veterinarian.
    Established name of the drug.
    Any specified directions for use including the class/species or identification of the animal or herd, flock, pen, lot, or other group; the dosage frequency, and route of administration; and the duration of therapy.
    Any cautionary statements.
    Your specified withdrawal, withholding, or discard time for meat, milk, eggs, or any other food.

There are also drugs absolutely positively forbidden to be used in food animals (ie ELDU NOT ALLOWED)
Drugs Prohibited for Extralabel Use in Food Animals (Current as of June 2003. Check for updates on the FDA Web site at www.fda.gov/cvm)

    Chloramphenicol
    Clenbuterol
    Diethylstilbestrol (DES)
    Dimetridazole
    Ipronidazole
    Other Nitroimidazoles
    Furazolidone, Nitrofurazone, Other Nitrofurans
    Sulfonamide drugs in lactating dairy cows (except approved use of sulfadimethoxine, sulfabromomethazine, and sulfaethoxypyridazine)
    Fluoroquinolones
    Glycopeptides (example: vancomycin)
    Phenybutazone in female dairy cattle 20 months of age or older
    Adamantane and neuraminidase inhibitor classes of drugs that are approved for treating or preventing influenza A are prohibited therapy in chickens, turkeys, and ducks (Effective: June 20, 2006)

I know people do it - that doesn't make it right.  I have heard the argument that we want to protect the kid or the public and I think it is bunk - I saw a tranquilized bull sleep through the sale - because the owner didn't want him to hurt anyone - IMHO he should have been burger.

You guys were all over Jody for his approach to youth and here you are teaching your kids to cheat and to use drugs that are illegal in food animals - we are producing food for human consumption - one would think that we would take the rules about drug use seriously - but apparently not when we might win a belt buckle.

Hope that clear it up a bit - it is a complicated, confusing conundrum and that doesn't even take into account the ethics of tranquilizing animals for show or sale

PS - don't shoot the messenger - I don't make the rules but I  abide by them

 

[bellaangus]

;D Thank you! This is much appreciated and excellent information.

 

[DL]

;D Thank you! This is much appreciated and excellent information.

You are welcome 

 

[AAOK]

Back in 1989, when my daughters, 8 & 12, wanted to be like several of their peers showing animals, we decided to raise our own. Neither my wife or I had any experience with livestock, or the Show ring, but I had friends and acquaintances who did.

Long Story, Short, we raised Maine-Anjou and a few Simmental,  showed in 9 States in 10 years, and had a blast!  I always encourage "Show what you Grow". We did it with ZERO know how,  a very small budget, 9 - 12 Cows, and even made a profit.

NEVER had to worry about a crazy calf!

 

[Diamond]

It'd a horrible thing, taking someone's word, spending the money to have a monster calf but the worst mistake would be giving up after a bad go. Whats the true point of showing that fuzzy cheeseburger around the ring? Teaching her its ok to give up when the going gets rough isn't a good life lesson. Yes, it sucks. I personally have been burnt a few times. Had a steer we bought from a big operation for this season last year that turned out to be completely psychotic. My cousin was hurt by the thing, but she dusted herself off. I'm the one who made the call to send it straight to the packers, no resell, dead. The seller was no help. She's a 14yr old whos maybe 115# soaking wet. I couldn't get her another steer in time/afford one so she took out a homegrown that wasn't that good but she busted her butt and did vary well. My point is this, teach her to be resilient even when it gets rough.

 

[Okotoks]

It'd a horrible thing, taking someone's word, spending the money to have a monster calf but the worst mistake would be giving up after a bad go. Whats the true point of showing that fuzzy cheeseburger around the ring? Teaching her its ok to give up when the going gets rough isn't a good life lesson. Yes, it sucks. I personally have been burnt a few times. Had a steer we bought from a big operation for this season last year that turned out to be completely psychotic. My cousin was hurt by the thing, but she dusted herself off. I'm the one who made the call to send it straight to the packers, no resell, dead. The seller was no help. She's a 14yr old whos maybe 115# soaking wet. I couldn't get her another steer in time/afford one so she took out a homegrown that wasn't that good but she busted her butt and did vary well. My point is this, teach her to be resilient even when it gets rough.

If she learns that from this bad experience it will be a valuable life lesson!

 

[DLD]

Lots of good discussion here, some I agree with, some I don't.  But without re-hashing all of that, I do have one other thought.  How did that steer get transported from the seller to you?  I know that often they get stuck on whatever  semi (or gooseneck) that can be found going the right direction. I work at a sale barn, and deal with cattle truck drivers regularly, and I have no doubt that spending a day or two being handled by some of these people could ruin many a calf's attitude.  Don't get me wrong, some are good at handling cattle and do it right, but I'd never let a random truck driver haul a show calf for me.  Too many of them think they need to light every calf up with a hot shot any time they need them to move, and don't mind crowding them really tight or worry about feeding and watering them.

Might not be the problem here, but I've seen it before.

 

[4-h mom]

Lots of good discussion here, some I agree with, some I don't.  But without re-hashing all of that, I do have one other thought.  How did that steer get transported from the seller to you?  I know that often they get stuck on whatever  semi (or gooseneck) that can be found going the right direction. I work at a sale barn, and deal with cattle truck drivers regularly, and I have no doubt that spending a day or two being handled by some of these people could ruin many a calf's attitude.  Don't get me wrong, some are good at handling cattle and do it right, but I'd never let a random truck driver haul a show calf for me.  Too many of them think they need to light every calf up with a hot shot any time they need them to move, and don't mind crowding them really tight or worry about feeding and watering them.

Might not be the problem here, but I've seen it before.

DLD you might have hit the nail on the head right there. we have been discussing this very same thing here. He came in on a semi, and while i trust this driver and he is a very good guy, we are thinking that maybe the trip unhinged him . Has anyone ever experianced this? How did things end?
Untill we hear from the breeder about this calf thats our other possability about where these problems are coming from. I know when we saw first saw him he wasent pyscho (that we know of)but maybe the hauling might have unsettled him.
my daughter is much better, she had a good weekend finally and when i say that i mean she didnt get hurt, she  is tough and while we both got very discouraged but all the support and kind words from everyone helped. thanks.
Also the Big Boys have come over and have been working on him .
sometimes i think i've been doing this to long but then when you have a good day makes a differance.