bad language vs bad advice

[JbarL]

hows about nicotine as a "calming" agent......a nice 6"  patch for the 1200# "nervy" contestant??  would the effects be addicting? would they cause decrresed or increased depedency??  is nicotime legal, as a calming agent inthe show ring???  jbarl

 

[Jill]

What about discussing cosmetic surgrey in animals? I know a vet in Texas that made is living by chopping off ears of market cattle and transplanting them on show animals. My cousin from Texas also told me of a fella who takes a metal plate in the shape of the tooth line, and whacks it a few times with a sledge hammer to keep the teeth from falling out "before the animal show career is over".  I know of several heifers that had very successful show careers after they had their necks done. So since that is "common practice" is all that acceptable also? I mean, heck, EVERYONE is doing it, so it must be ok????

I'm not sure what is considered "common practice" in your part of the country, but I can tell you I  haven't known anyone that did any of those things, the 1st two I've never even heard of. 
It isn't that it is acceptable, it is that it is acceptable to talk about if you choose to, doesn't make it right or wrong.  Again, if you aren't old enough or responsible enough to know the difference, you probably needed adult supervision.

 

[DL]

I would like to read the advise and thoughts on using melatonin on show calves. Not grow and shine but the bottles from walmart or other places. I have never heard negative comments from anybody in person but I have never asked a vet about it. Especially would like to hear what DL has to say about it.

Thanks for the input

As is probably pretty clear - this is gov't in action and it is often not clear and may not make sense but it s the law I have to follow.

The ELDU applies to drugs - drugs defined as those things approved for use for some reason by some route for some species including humans - drugs per se need to be tested and approved for the specific use - so for a made up example if we have the antibiotic saveallomycin and it is approved for use in cattle for pneumonia, if the manufacturer wants the have a label for foot rot they have to spend the money to get approval for foot rot on the label - if they think it will be cost effective, then they will do it, otherwise it would be ELDU.

Now if you look at DMSO - you might think it is an organic solvent (which it is) but it is also a drug approved for use in horses - so you can't legally go to wherever you would go to buy DMSO and slather it on your steers sore hocks, BUT if you veterinarian thought it was the appropriate treatment for the condition and supplied you with the drug, label, withdrawal etc then it could be used

Now to melatonin - which is considered a supplement.  Melatonin (aka 5-methoxy- N-acetyl- tryptamine) is a hormone produced in the brain by the pineal gland, from the amino acid tryptophan. The synthesis and release of melatonin are stimulated by darkness and suppressed by light, suggesting the involvement of melatonin in circadian rhythm and regulation of diverse body functions. Levels of melatonin in the blood are highest prior to bedtime. Synthetic melatonin supplements have been used for a variety of human medical conditions, most notably for disorders related to sleep. This suggests to me that melatonin could have a "calming" effect on a variety of mammals and that is why it is used. Melatonin is not regulated by the FDA.

Hope that helps.

Jill - I am aware of lots of nasty things done to cattle (and other species) apparently to achieve perfection and the purple - surgically removing the wrong color, surgically implanting things (including cotton) to change the shape of an animal (that individual lost his license to practice, thank goodness), surgically altering the shape of the next etc - just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen

JBARL - art low concentrations nicotine is considered a stimulant - don't knkow anybody who has their ahow cattle chew before the show - but I suppose it could happen

 

[OH Breeder]

Red - I would PM you, but can't so I guess I will break the moderators request and put it here for all to see.
I have not PM you since YOU called ME.
Jill - I directed the question to red, as she told everyone if we had any questions or issues to bring them up to her. So I did. Is that a problem? She did WANT to be a moderator, and the job of the moderator is to answer questions from members. I simply ask her a question.

I am not sure how to say this, but....discussing using ace/thorazine in show cattle is illegal (ok, not discussing it, but actually using it). So I find it odd that a board that is so focused on youth, would allow discussion on something such as that.  Not really promoting, but certainly not discouraging (and those of us that do disagree - well, we just don't understand).
What about discussing cosmetic surgrey in animals? I know a vet in Texas that made is living by chopping off ears of market cattle and transplanting them on show animals. My cousin from Texas also told me of a fella who takes a metal plate in the shape of the tooth line, and whacks it a few times with a sledge hammer to keep the teeth from falling out "before the animal show career is over".  I know of several heifers that had very successful show careers after they had their necks done. So since that is "common practice" is all that acceptable also? I mean, heck, EVERYONE is doing it, so it must be ok????

But, everyone has to sleep at night, and I have decided what I can sleep over and what I can't. Everyone else has done the same. I guess this is where I'm going to disagree with a few folks and sleep at night, and I am sure they will do the same.  Good evening to you all!

By the way, Chris LeDoux was awesome in concert!!!

Just because you discuss the use of something does not make it wrong. Few years back they were saying cloning was awful and wrong and prior to that AI'ing cattle was messing with nature. I think everything should be discussed. If brought to light in the right way it can be informative. Maybe some youth will think twice before doing it. The law does not recognize ignorance as an excuse, ie I didn't kno wit was illegal. This may be one avenue to bring that too light. Cosmetic surgery, I would love to hear how ridiculous people are. I find it curious that people will go to those extremes. Humans develop cosmetic surgical addictions maybe some of those folks have another type of addiction. It is a public forum that can be used to help alot of folks. We all don't have to agree that is what makes this country so great.
JMO

 

[renegade]

I havent heard of cosmetic sugery on cattle except on this board but we dont have the huge shows around here like texas does. To me it sounds like cruelty to animals (im not trying to go all PETA on you guys but i hate to even think about it, it seems well  :'(). As for AI, did you know that foals produced by AI cannot be raced (and i dont think they can be registerd) in the thoroughbred association? I learned that when touring Kentucky and our tour guide had some very strong feelings about it but it seems very common practice in every other breed and even species. I just thought it was an interesting fact.

 

[red]

Red - I would PM you, but can't so I guess I will break the moderators request and put it here for all to see.
I have not PM you since YOU called ME.
Jill - I directed the question to red, as she told everyone if we had any questions or issues to bring them up to her. So I did. Is that a problem? She did WANT to be a moderator, and the job of the moderator is to answer questions from members. I simply ask her a question.

lost me on the moderator rules. All I ever asked was that if you had a personal issue w/ a person to PM them & not rehash it here. I have a right as a moderator to block any person I feel is not good for my well being. as a non-paying job I certainly don't have to put up w/ hassels.
All I said was that I hadn't gotten your 2-3 requests on your question. Certainly post all your questions on board subjects here.

Red

 

[chambero]

Jen - you are almost 20 years off on your tooth thing.  Texas major shows don't have "tooth rules" anymore - haven't since the very early 90s.  And they didn't pound teeth back in their head (although a little denture glue would buy you an extra day or two).  Folks took very young calves shortly after purchase to a vet in Oklahoma who quickly drilled out the buds of the permanent teeth.  There may have been other vets doing it, but there was a steady stream of trailers running up the highway every April and May for their appointments.  And most importantly, it wasn't against the rules at the time.  Instead of passing rules against the practice, the Texas shows just did away with the tooth rules.  British calves were notorious for losing their teeth very young.  A little tidbit though - a steer isn't truly at his peak till right about the time he is ready to spit his teeth.  The old saying down here was you didn't have to worry about winning if you didn't have to worry about teeth.

The "tooth rule" was an attempt to keep people from showing calves that were way too old and stale.  What shows finally realized was that the judges took care of that problem on their own.  The age a calf lost its teeth really didn't have much to do with how old that calf was and a whole lot of kids had to take calves to the sale barn through no fault of their own.  The decision of the shows to eliminate the rule helped a whole lot of kids. 

Somone is pulling your leg on the ear thing.  Never heard of it and it would be impossible not to leave a big visible scar.  I don't think you could even start to get the cartiledge attached correctly.  A little water or mineral oil in an ear on the day of the sift for American cross calves is fiarly common.

Show rules are much more clear and concise now.  A lot of these "tricks" people hear of go way back before they were against rules.  Folks also don't feel the need to to dabble with things such as clenbuterol and others that went on years ago due to the availability of legal alternatives that work better.  Obviously there are still "things" that go on, but most really don't make a difference in the animal but are just artifacts of old practices from 20-30 years ago. 

The main reason in the changes is that cattle are just so much better now.  It's easier to go find a good calf now than it used to be.  I've never truly heard of someone ever "Making" one that worked out.  You just can't mess with animal that much.  In the few public cases of folks getting caught the animals probably didn't need those things to begin with. 

I still contend that essentially all animals that are going in the show ring at a terminal show are residue free without "stuff" stuck under their skin, etc.  Every once in a while you hear of someone down here flunking a drug test - but its usually an antiobiotic, dex, or lasix.  Lasix may still be in relatively common use at one show in particular, but judges could take care of that if they'd quit picking monsters that are obviously 2-300 lbs heavier when full.

And I fail to see how discussion of these things compares to using vulgar language?  There are infinitely more "rumors" than reality.  A little discussion can dispel some of these things.  Some of us have been around long enough to know what was/is really done.  Its almost always highly overated.  Good breeding and hard work done by the kids dwarfs the importance of any tricks.  The "they cheated" crutch is an excuse made by people that don't want to put in the years of learning and hard work it takes to get "good" at this game. 

 

[frostback]

What about discussing cosmetic surgrey in animals? I know a vet in Texas that made is living by chopping off ears of market cattle and transplanting them on show animals.

If you believe this I have some property I would like to sell you.  (lol)

 

[cowz]

What about discussing cosmetic surgrey in animals? I know a vet in Texas that made is living by chopping off ears of market cattle and transplanting them on show animals.

If you believe this I have some property I would like to sell you.  (lol)

Or....how about that new lift surgery for those older show cows that have udders suspension issues????? (cow) ;D

 

[DL]

What about discussing cosmetic surgrey in animals? I know a vet in Texas that made is living by chopping off ears of market cattle and transplanting them on show animals.

If you believe this I have some property I would like to sell you.  (lol)

Or....how about that new lift surgery for those older show cows that have udders suspension issues????? (cow) ;D

I think Platex makes a Bovine Wonder Bra - 4 cups - all sizes - cheaper than surgery and you can get matching or contrasting colors! (including B&W) (cow) (clapping) (cow) (clapping) (cow) (I am not sure if they make a Bovine Girdle)

 

[red]

you know, we talk about beef cattle but you should see the things they do to enhance a dairy cow's udders! 

I can always loan out some of my falsies!!!

Red ;D

 

[Cowboy]

Hello every one -- hope all are well and warm!

I am about to do something here I have told myself never to do -- and some will say it is taking sides, I don't think it is but it may be in some way.

I don't ever try to get involved in personal issues -- especially on the boards as this is where ALL people come to chat -- hopefully learn and be friends. I have watched several topics go from inocent disccusions to wham-bang slander em all posts! I don't like that -- I really do not.

I started a post a while ago asking questions and opinions on a bull named Gigolo Joe -- I felt he was and "IS" a good bull and wanted to see what others thought. Little did I know at the time I was sticking my foot in a door that was already on fire! hehehe -- I recieved SEVERAL PM's trashing the bull, the people that own the bull and was even told by one -- "I would think there would be a better bull out there to use than one from people like that" -- WHAT????? A good bull is a good bull --and I plan on useing this bull -- if you are smart alot of you WILL use this bull as well. I didn't say too much about the messages I recieved, other than I was surprised by getting them --- aparently I stepped on some toes that were already sore from other heated discussions! Oh well !

On the drug issues I am seeing here -- sure -- every one needs to know the law and why it is in place, but I am not stupid, it has been published to the point of sheer IRE -- I am sick of seeing it -- I for one GET THE POINT. If all the drugs used today were used exactly as implied on the labels -- then how in HELL do cows in every state get INDUCED to calve when the owner wants them too -- ????? Tell me folks -- Dexamethazone is NOT listed to induce labor as a convenience --DL and Show Hfr --you both use that scenario alot and rightly so most times, but this IS one case where you need to NOT DO IT if you are indeed as legal as we are reading. Come on folks -- some of you on here are my customers, and my friends, I don't like to have to take sides -- but I have watched a couple of you dig a HUGE hole for yourselves over and over again, now there are many people standing over that hole ready to cover it back up with you in it!

PLEASE -- stop the escapade of "I am better" and lets all get back to being friends. If this causes me to lose current and potential customers, I am sorry -- but I am sick of hiding -- it isn't me. I follow the rules in my business as best I can, but I will deffinately tell you all -- there ARE and HAVE BEEN cows here that CAN NOT be flushed unless they are tranguilized -- not heavily --but slowed down. It is a safety issue for both the COW and the operator --that be ME!! I like having all my body parts in tact. SH -- one of those cows was yours -- remember 407?? I do use Acepromazine with discretion -- and if you even think that no one else does for the same reason out here in cow country -- I'll will take you to 3 other practices, all VETS and lisenced, who shoot EVERY cow -- recips and donors -- just because!!!

Now that I have dug my own hole -- please no one throw in so much dirt I can't dig back out!

Drugs are a reality -- "Discretion" is what we ALL need to further grow -- if it were not for drugs in this business, we might as well kill all the cattle right now and forget it -- cuz we are TOAST without alot of them. NUF SAID!!

Every one settle down, crawl back down off that tall horse of rightousness, and lets every one get back to being friends! If any one wants to PM me, make it nice please, I didn't write this to start a darn war!

Please do have good day!

Terry

 

[JbarL]

What about discussing cosmetic surgrey in animals? I know a vet in Texas that made is living by chopping off ears of market cattle and transplanting them on show animals.

If you believe this I have some property I would like to sell you.  (lol)

not sure about chopping off ears....but how's about a little "Criso" botox type  injections....thats a bit of a cosmitic ajustment.... ???j barl

 

[red]

wow, Cowboy- I'm in tears. Thank you for your honesty.

Red

 

[chambero]

Cowboy - thanks for chiming in here.  I know that DL and SH are technically correct.  But everybody I grew up with and learned from, every single vet I've ever used, on and on and on have used these things for very practical - and responsible - reasons.  Everyone I grew up with and learned from aren't crooks or cheaters.  Knock on wood - I've fooled with show calves since 1985 and never been seriously injured or had someone with me hurt.  That is primarily because of the good Lord's grace, but a little judgement on which ones to fool with was also involved.  Use of tranquilizers might have helped a little but not much.

Every commercial operator I know that runs yearlings on wheat has whole refrigerators full of antibiotics, banamine, etc.  And calves get stuck with a needle anyway you can get it in them.  I'd like to see an FDA regulator get a shot of banamine in a vein on a calf that is "headed and heeled". Convienience is somewhat of an understatement.

No regulation anywhere precludes the use of common sense from a practical standpoint.  We are responsible for what goes wrong when we take liberties.  Nobody would send a calf to slaughter right after being doctored that has any common sense - if for no other reason than because they haven't picked back up on weight yet.  

 

[Cowboy]

I agree 100% Chambero -- I just needed to say something to try and put things back in perspective.

I do hope every one takes the message as it is intended, and not negativity.

I know a really good VET in Missouri who, after years of using alcohol in his personal life a little too much, who would --with his first cup of morning coffee -- drip a drop or two of Banamine in to that cup. He said one time after a long noght off partying, he just couldn't get past the hangover without it. I have never tried that, but it comes from his own mouth!!! Go figure -- he is now in late 50's or early 60's, and still in practice! Talked to him last month even, he sounded great!!

Again, not all the folks out there with tons of cattle have the ability to absolutely FOLLOW THE LABEL. I try, but thre are times??

Take care all -- thanks for understanding!

Terry

 

[knabe]

in california, there is pending legislation to hook up all new thermostats to the government so they can limit the maximum during energy crunches.  our crisis was created by greed, deception, and government.  who will govern government? CA won't drill of the coast of barbara streisand's house, they mandate subsidies for energy that don't make sense.  the government is out of control.  who will run for office and curb their enthusiasm.  witness the lack of a link of mercury to children's vacc's the other day, but will CA overturn that to lower cost?  no way, they need to argue about how to ask for and spend 6 billion more in schools to teach our kids to make laws with restrictions that are based on fear.  the government is immune from penalty for bad advice, ie building on top of a peat bog that used to be above the ocean, but is now 20 feet below the ocean.  what are we going to do?  allow suits for 1 quadrillion dollars (look it up) and build better levees.  look at nevada recently.  we built stupid levees, allowed housing there, probably going to pay flood insurance.  who allows policies to be written?  why the federal government.  fix them.  it's costing you billions.  don't build in a flood plain, or if you do, at least raise the ground where you build.  remember, you the taxpayer, are underwriting insurance companies to write policies in flood plains.  myopia.

 

[frostback]

Cowboy you are the MAN. I wish I could be as elegant with words as you but that never seems to happen. Thanks for an unbiased opinion. Common sense sometimes need to rule what happens in your life not all the laws or rules that are not meant to know all the instances in life but just the majority.

 

[common sense]

  Thank you Cowboy. very well said.  By the way, welcome to the "can'o worms club".  (lol)  I don't think you should look at this as choosing sides.  I think that you should look at is as keeping a good perspective from outside of the box.  Someday you will have to define "people like that" for me. 

Knabe- you crack me up.  Do you drink coffee?  (lol)

Maybe we should have a thread on yoga and meditation and practicing zen?  Oi!!!

 

[CAB]

I just want to add that having topics that we can or can't talk about on this or any other board is like stick your head in the sand. I want people to be able to talk & comment about whatever they want to. It's the only way to solve problems. Chances are if you have a question to ask, someone else is wondering the same thing.
    I'll give you all a question that I have. I was walking around doing chores one day this week, & have a couple of calves with ringworm, was wondering why if ringworm is caused by a fungus, why then do they only get it once in their lives? Can they build immunity to a fungus? What do you all know about this? Awaiting an answer. Brent