bad language vs bad advice

[red]

I'm probably going to open a huge can of worms here or worse! I've had 2 different people ask me the same question & I thought I'd try to explain & offer it up for discussion. The question has been: Why does the board not allow cussing because of the kids but does allow the promotion of illegal stubstances? OK, taking a deep breath & going into the pit!
Cussing, profanity, hurtful language towards a race or sex is pretty straight forward. I think we all can agree that there certain words we do not want our kids to be exposed to. The same goes for some attitudes & judgments. It has been very clear from the start that the admin guys do not want that on this board. The moderators before & now continue that tradition. Also the same can be said for direct hurtful slander towards a business or person.
I truly do not believe that the illegal use of any substance has been widely promoted here. It might come up as a suggestion or as advice but it is usually pointed out why it's not a good idea. This board & many of the others are for both entertainment & also education. My feelings are that unless you actually know the person offering the advice & trust them, I'd do some research of my own. It would be nice to be able to put a little sticker on some posts that advise against doing the same but it just can't be done. Also, I think many times someone is just relating a story & is not actually offering advice. Many times we do things in our own lives that we certainly don't want copied.
I don't want to police the board & make judgment calls on what is illegal or not. Some are clear cut & we know we shouldn't be doing it but that's just the way it's been done. I want people to offer advice & opinions but be aware that they may get some feedback from their choices too. I think that if a substance is recommended & there is a post that tells it's illegal than it's the readers responsibility to do the right thing. most people already have made up their mind what they're going to use or do.
I'm not picking on anybody. I'm answering some questions & also opening this up for discussion. I think that how we deliver the message is also an important part of the mix too but that's a whole nother subject!

Red- digging herself a hole!

 

[DLD]

Great post, Red.

I think the point of a discussion board is to look at an issue from as many different viewpoints as there are board members who are interested enough and willing to join in. Bad advice (sometimes even good advice - lol) rarely goes unchallenged on this, or any other board with much traffic. Certain subjects we pretty much know what alot of peoples opinion is going to be, but the beauty of the whole thing is that if we agree or disagree we're all free to give our opinion (within the guidelines of the board, of course). Those of us who are learning from it will take all of those opinions into consideration, and maybe they'll cause us to form or change our own opinion. Some opinions never change - that's ok, too. In the end it's up to each reader to take from a discussion what they will.

 

[common sense]

Red I very much agree.  I think that education is the key to making good decisions. The burden falls on us as far as how we use that information. Not everyone will take the high road. The schools are teaching our kids about about drugs and sex (can I say that?) in hopes of making them aware of the issues and allowing them to make the right decisions when they are faced with the choice. I don't think that teaching these things to kids in school promotes their use anymore than discussing the legalities of drugs on the internet promotes their use. Hopefully what this does is encourage people to ask more questions and to go forward to get more information from other sources and then form an educated opinion.  Sometimes there are very grey areas.  For example, the use of marijuana for medical purposes or telling our children that drinking is bad and then having a glass of wine while chowing down on a nice thick ribeye.

When I was growing up I was very involved with horses and cattle.  My parents were not very involved with livestock so everything I learned I had to glean from others.  I actually sought out positive AND negative role models to learn from.  There was an old horse "jockey" that handled his horses with an iron fist.  I think that I learned more from him and his negative handling as a "what NOT to do when training horses" type of role model than the positive role models.  It was a study of people who acted in a negative manner and learning the consequences.  I didn't want any part of that lifestyle...my way might take longer and involve more effort but the end results were always worth it.

The frustrating thing about conversing/communicating via the internet or web is that we are so comfortable hiding behind out computor monitors.  It's a safe place where you don't have to listen to anybody disagree with you if you choose, you can walk away from the conversation  at any time and you don't have to reveal who you are.  It's like being at a mascarade party.  You can act and say things that are totally out of character for you; you can be somebody that you wouldn't normally be.  Any shy person can come out of the closet and rip somebody a new one in the safety of their own home.  Our computers enable us to shed some of the manners and social skills that our parents worked so hard to instill upon us.  My point here is that I think we should all think about what we are writing in the web and ask ourselves if this is something we would say if we were standing face to face with that person and if they knew who we were.  We also have to ask ourselves if what we say on here is something that we would say to our children.  There is a big difference between what we would LIKE to say and what we SHOULD  say.  And, of course, there are the times that no matter how you intend to type/say something it just gets misinterpreted in the written form.

I think that this forum and others are a great place to learn and grow on many topics.  I truly enjoy that this site is so diverse and that it allows us to make the distance between all of us seem so much closer.  I wish that everyone that reads this board would feel comfortable enough to post something but there is certainly a fear of being chastised that would stop most readers.  I just feel sad that we have to be afraid to respond because of what might happen.  That is a sad statement.

 

[Jill]

I'm going to put in my 2 cents on this one, I use my own name on this and every other board I post on, I would not post anything on here that I wouldn't tell you in person, it keeps me honest in what I post, sometimes it tempers what I write, sometimes not so much.  Each and everyone of us has to make a decision when you read a response, the person typing could be 6-96 and may have no knowledge whatsoever about the subject they are giving opinions about, I will never forget the time someone gave advice on a bull to use and I found out later that it was a 12 year old, you have to be aware that this is an open forum take what is written and make your own decisions on what is right or wrong.
Cussing, profanity, slander in my opinion have nothing to do with the kids, it is verbage that is unnecessary to express the way one feels about a subject, I can tell you I have been cussed at on another board in the last couple of weeks and it made me furious, there is no reason for it.
I have not seen anywhere on this board where illegal substances have been promoted.  I have probably as many grey areas in my mind as anyone on this board and in my opinion this is a discussion (I assume we are talking about Ace and Thorazine) that would be along the same lines as changing a 28th to a 1st, or a 107# bw to a 92 etc., these things are all part of the business we have all chosen to be involved in, they are a reality that our kids are already being exposed to.  I have not ever seen a controversial subject on this board that both sides of an issues have not been addressed.  If my children or yours are not mature enough to read a discussion about something that goes on in this business then they are not mature enough to be sitting in front of a computer without some adult supervision!

 

[knabe]

i haven't got the feeling that anyone has been advocating illegal drugs.  certainly in some people's mind, listening to jimi hendrix falls into advocation.  I'm not ready to let it fall to that level, anymore than i am ready to write people off for not being perfect.  we have discussed this before with legal drugs and their abuse.  certainly if one were to line up how people die in a spreadsheet, legal drugs, both liquor and prescription drugs abuse and theri ramifications far outweigh illegal drugs.  more people die every year from staph infections than aids, and both can be curbed with behavior modifications.  we choose not to do it because someone will label someone with discrimination of some sort.  It's amazing how our schools are overriding safety mechanisms by advocation at earlier and earlier ages and we are SHOCKED at the results.  If one doens't think normalizing behavior for a 6 year old doesn't have an effect, they are in for a suprise.  in my family, alchohol and suicide have been pretty thick and far more damaging than illegal drugs.  this is just the way it is, not what should be.  most drug laws have a basis in racial discrimination in their inception, ie with marijuana in the south for field workers, the bosses thought it made them lazy, so they made it illegal.  making it illegal is the quickest way to increase the potency by concentrating the active ingredient for transportation purposes to keep it hidden from the law.  the proble  comes when the same volume is used (with the increased potency), creating an even faster abuse spiral.  then the penalties are increased, again racially discriminatory, where the penalty for crack cocaine is more than a drunk driving fatality.  what a complete and total joke.  idealism is a personal, faith based aspiration, and has always succumbed to the law of diminishing returns and costs greater than linear (log increase) for ever increasing intolerance when put into law.

this is earth, the lamb doesn't lay with the lion.  though i can think of a few people who want to legislate this.

 

[Show Dad]

Red - Can I take the shovel and dig a while?

Very good topic Red and great responses to all above. But I think this is the conflict (rub, tog-o-war) that happens with having an open & free discussion over a wide range of topics whose participants vary in their demographics. What is appropriate language or content  (the rules) is crucial and needs to be stated and restated. The line can be fuzzy (discussing illegal substances) or well defined (promoting the use of illegal substances). When done well (by all not just the moderators) much fun and information can be had.

With greater freedom comes greater responsibility. May we all work to have a modicum of decorum this year.

 

[DL]

Good topic and great and thoughtful responses - I might even add that I agree with much of what Juli says (I know that is shocking  ) as well as Jill, but I must add

the use of either acepromazine or thorazine in show animals is illegal (against the letter of the law) - it fails ELDU and AMDUCA - verboten (and anyone who raised food animals should be intimately familiar with these 2 documents).

Now saying that I also know that it is used a lot and that the only way you get it is from your veterinarian. I know that people have lots of reasons and exceuse for using it. I also know that I rarely go to a show or sale where I am not asked to provide a bottle ("to take the edge off") - I am sure you know what I do.

Many of my collegues and I are continually fighting with people who want us to prescribe for them a drug that is illegal to use in cattle - well everyone else has it - what's the big deal etc

Well maybe if your license or your livelihood was at stake, and not just a ribbon, you might see it differently. I am not willing to risk my license

 

[JbarL]

dl....good to here from you again.......jill....i agree with you 100% also....i use my brand online for me as well....red ...sorry i said bull****  the other day ....
dl......can you explain to me ( and the other little kids  ) the ace and thorazine drugs to me....i gather it is a "calming" agent...and is illega to use in the show ring , but what about commercial herds?  for calming purposes?......and the such...jbarl

 

[red]

no problem Jbarl, too me there is bad language & there is BAD language. I've been known to let a few slip from my lips too. I take it all in ciontext & how it's being used. I think farm kids can also take some more graphic pictures than some.

Red

 

[showsteerdlux]

Well I haven't been on here long but I do think that there is a difference. In my opinion I have not really seen the board promote illegal substances. Yes there are individuals who openly admit that they use certain drugs such as Ace and Thorazine, but at least they have the decency to openly admit this instead of trying to hide it. Also although my real name is not used on here my age is correct on my page and anyone who wants to can check and see if they still want to use any advice that i have given. I guess you could say that I am pro keeping the language out and pro discussing these drugs. i personally have been told to Ace a calf  more than once and offered the drug and have refused and told the people offering it to me that it is illegal in that use. Many people do not even realize this and assume that if the vet gave it to them that it is ok to use on anything. point is that this boards discussion helps open up the topic to many people who may not even realize that they are doing something illegal. I think that the discussion of the "illegal" drugs actually helps others realize that they are illegal instead of encouraging more to use them.

 

[DL]

JBarL - Happy New Year 2 you! Here is info on extra label drug use - (maybe more than you wished for!)

When you look at a bottle of medicine it will state what the drug is to be used for and what the dose is and how the drug is to be administered. The listed use on the bottle is considered the “label use”. It will also state the species that the drug is approved for. Human and animal drugs are labeled in such a fashion. As an aside - In human medicine, unless the patient given informed consent, using a drug outside of the labeled use can result in a lawsuits).

For example Banamine is labeled for use in cattle to control fever associated with respiratory disease at a dose of 0.5 to 1 mg/kg to be given IV – if you give more of the drug or use it for an acute injury or give it in the muscle it is extra label drug use (ELDU) and subject to the rules and regulations set up by AMDUCA (Animal Medicinal Drug Use Clarification Act of 1994). Acepromazine is approved (labeled) for use in horses and dogs, thorazine is a human antipsychotic.

Prior to AMDUCA, veterinarians were not legally permitted to use an animal drug in any way except as indicated on the label. Following the passage of AMDUCA, veterinarians gained the right to prescribe/dispense the “extralabel” use of drugs but the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) places limits the extralabel use of drugs to protect public health.

ELDU occurs when the drug’s actual or intended use in a manner no in accordance with the approved label, for example using a drug in a species which is not listed on the label, for a use not on the label, at a dose not on the label or by a route not on the label. Although the ELDU rule allows veterinarians to legally use drugs beyond what the label says this must be done within the confines of the law.

It is actually a luxury to be able to prescribe drugs extra label – and I and most of my colleagues take this responsibility very seriously. ELDU in food animals is not only a matter of food safety and purity, but consumer confidence and integrity of product – whether that product is being sold as a breeding animal, shown, or in the meat case.

ELDU is limited to cases in which the health of the animal is threatened, or suffering or death may result from a lack of treatment. ELDU is not an option where the drug use is to enhance production. Veterinarians can consider ELDU in food-producing animals only when no approved drug is available for use that contains the same active ingredient in the required dosage form and concentration, or that the veterinarian finds that there is no approved drug that is clinically effective for the intended use.

There are a variety of criteria that must be met and rules that must be followed for the legal use of drugs extra label. Many large dairies and other operation have “SOPS” given to them by their veterinarian that describes the use of various drugs – dose, route, use, and WITHDRAWAL TIME. When you use a drug off label the withdrawal time changes and can result in a residue in meat or milk. Dairy producers who depend on clean milk for their paycheck are acutely aware of ELDU and milk withdrawal and slaughter withhold. Many of the noncommercial show oriented beef producers are less aware.  There can be significant consequences.

The key is ELDU is limited to cases in which the health of the animal is threatened, or suffering or death may result from a lack of treatment. There is absolutely no way you can follow the law and give your show animals ace, no matter what the rational, excuse, reason, etc


There are also drugs that can absolutely positively NOT be used in an extra label manner – these include
· Chloramphenicol
· Clenbuterol
· Diethylstilbestrol (DES)
· Dimetridazole
· Ipronidazole
· Other Nitroimidazoles
· Furazolidone, Nitrofurazone, Other Nitrofurans
· Sulfonamide drugs in lactating dairy cows (except approved use of sulfadimethoxine, sulfa bromomethazine, and sulfaethoxypyridazine)
· Fluoroquinolones
· Glycopeptides (example: vancomycin)
· Phenybutazone in female dairy cattle 20 months of age or older
· Adamantane and neuraminidase inhibitor classes of drugs that are approved for treating or preventing influenza A are prohibited therapy in chickens, turkeys, and ducks (Effective: June 20, 2006)

In summary, the veterinarian must:
-Make a careful diagnosis or evaluation of the conditions to be treated;
-Establish a substantially extended drug withdrawal period that is supported by scientific evidence;
-Take the steps necessary to be sure the withdrawal period is met and no illegal drug residues occur in food from the treated animals; and
- Institute procedures to make sure the treated animal’s identity is known. And that records relating to details of the ELDU are retained for the required two years.

The AMDUCA regulation places requirements on the veterinarian to properly label the drugs used extralabel and to give the livestock owner complete instructions about proper use of the drug and withdrawal times. Veterinarians remain responsible for any volative drug tissue residues that occur because of ELDU under their supervision.

Under no circumstances can a non-veterinarian order the extralabel use of a drug in animals.

The AVMA has a good brochure explaining ELDU (web site below) but I have also attached it.

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/amducatoc.htm
http://www.avma.org/reference/amduca/amduca1.asp
http://vetext.unl.edu/stories/200701100.shtml

 

[Jill]

There are also drugs that can absolutely positively NOT be used in an extra label manner – these include
· Chloramphenicol
· Clenbuterol
· Diethylstilbestrol (DES)
· Dimetridazole
· Ipronidazole
· Other Nitroimidazoles
· Furazolidone, Nitrofurazone, Other Nitrofurans
· Sulfonamide drugs in lactating dairy cows (except approved use of sulfadimethoxine, sulfa bromomethazine, and sulfaethoxypyridazine)
· Fluoroquinolones
· Glycopeptides (example: vancomycin)
· Phenybutazone in female dairy cattle 20 months of age or older
· Adamantane and neuraminidase inhibitor classes of drugs that are approved for treating or preventing influenza A are prohibited therapy in chickens, turkeys, and ducks (Effective: June 20, 2006)

Ok, I understand the above portion of your post, the rest of it gets REALLY cloudy for me.
Lets take Banamine for instance since that is 1 of the examples you use, I can tell you that we have never given Banamine by an IV, have never been told to give it IV, I have Banamine on the top of the fridge and have used it per vet instructions on anything from bad foot to respitory etc... we are a very small producer and I find it hard to believe that every other vet in the country isn't doing the same thing as ours, there are only so many hours in a day and these guys that have hundreds of head of cattle aren't calling the vet out every time they need a shot,  how is it we still have any practicing vets in this country if this isn't legal?

 

[shortyjock89]

I'm sure we've covered this, but when we get our calves cosmetically dehorned, the vet gives us some banamine to give to them if they are still in pain over the next couple of days. This is savvy with the rules right? I don't think that the U of I would break them, but stranger things have happened....I just want to make sure since my PT heifer goes in for the dehorning tomorrow...

 

[DL]

Jill - It is unreasonalbe and illogical to assume that your vet would come out for everything - that is why the veterinary-client relationship is so important. SOPs and communication with your veterinarian make it (IMHO) within the law as long as the requirement listed below are met. Does he (she) give you a withdrawal for IM Banamine? If not he/she should - Banamine residue is becoming a bigger and more common problem.

LABEL REQUIREMENTS

    * Name and address of the prescribing veterinarian.
    * Established name of the drug.
    * Any specified directions for use including the class/species or identification of the animal or herd, flock, pen, lot, or other group; the dosage frequency, and route of administration; and the duration of therapy.
    * Any cautionary statements.
    * Your specified withdrawal, withholding, or discard time for meat, milk, eggs, or any other food.

RECORD REQUIREMENTS

    * Identify the animals, either as individuals or a group.
    * Animal species treated.
    * Numbers of animals treated.
    * Conditions being treated.
    * The established name of the drug and active ingredient.
    * Dosage prescribed or used.
    * Duration of treatment.
    * Specified withdrawal, withholding, or discard time(s), if applicable, for meat, milk, eggs, or animal-derived food.
    * Keep records for 2 years.
    * FDA may have access to these records to estimate risk to public health.

There are some clients that I would absolutely positively never leave with more drugs that needed to treat the specific animals. Others I trust implicitly. It is a matter of trust and relationships. Interestingly, the people I trust have never asked me to do anything illegal - whether it is related to drug use, movement etc

SJ89 - your vet should give you written instructions including a slaughter withdrawal - if he/she gives you 4 days for Banamine that is for IV dosing - ask what the withdrawal for IM use is - never hurts to push the envelope

 

[shortyjock89]

We would give the Banamine IM, and the vet gave us instructions, and none of the animals that we've had de-horned in this manner have ever been slaughtered...so I don't remember whether the kill withdrawl was on there.  I'll ask tomorrow.  Thanks alot  ;D

 

[Jill]

If I remember correctly the IM withdraw was 30 days, may have been 60 like SJ89 we haven't given Banamine for anything that was going to slaughter within months.

 

[Show Heifer]

Thanks for answering my question red....even if I DID have to ask 2-3 times....

 

[40yrold4her]

I would like to read the advise and thoughts on using melatonin on show calves. Not grow and shine but the bottles from walmart or other places. I have never heard negative comments from anybody in person but I have never asked a vet about it. Especially would like to hear what DL has to say about it.

Thanks for the input

 

[red]

Thanks for answering my question red....even if I DID have to ask 2-3 times....

I think I did answer your question the first time. You must be sending me e-mails that don't come to me or that I've blocked. It took me some time to think of what I wanted to say. I guess I figured I needed time to word it correctly.

Red

 

[strawroanlova]

all i can saay is for six years i had a drugatic/alcoholic who cussed every other word but thank god they got a divorce last week,the cussing doesnt bother me because im use to it and all the otherkids have probaly heard the words to