Big Brown

[chambero]

I don't follow horse racing very closely, but I think the times Secretariat put up in his triple crown races aren't even approached today.  I think he's still the standard, with some of the other triple crown winners bunched together in regards to times.  Unlike most athletic events, I'm not sure the "horse athletes" of today are better than they used to be. 

 

[afhm]

It looked to me like the jockey never let him loose to run at full steam.  i thought he was holding big brown back the whole time.  Maybe he was fixing the race.  I wonder if he and the trainer that were guaranteeing a win ate their crow warm or cold?

 

[farmboy]

for it to be a flop, someone wouldve paid alot of money for him to lose, the race winnings would be 1 mill plus visas triple crown deal they throw in 5 million and his estimated balue if he won wouldve went over 100 million dollars 

 

[Dusty]

I don't follow horse racing very closely, but I think the times Secretariat put up in his triple crown races aren't even approached today.  I think he's still the standard, with some of the other triple crown winners bunched together in regards to times.  Unlike most athletic events, I'm not sure the "horse athletes" of today are better than they used to be. 

On an earlier post someone was saying that years ago the tracks were a lot faster than they are now.  They have been softened up now a days so they aren't as hard on the horses, but consequently they are slower.  You could compare it to driving on a packed dirt road vs. driving on sandy road, you car will exert more energy to go the same speed on the softer surface.

 

[chambero]

It wasn't a flop.  The horse was right where he was supposed to be and just didn't have any gas to shift gears at the end.  I wouldn't be surprised though if the lack of steriods had something to do with him not fully recovering from the last race to run this longer one in hotter weather.  I'm glad they didn't find anything wrong with him though.  Sounds like he may run again though.

 

[chambero]

I don't follow horse racing very closely, but I think the times Secretariat put up in his triple crown races aren't even approached today.  I think he's still the standard, with some of the other triple crown winners bunched together in regards to times.  Unlike most athletic events, I'm not sure the "horse athletes" of today are better than they used to be. 

On an earlier post someone was saying that years ago the tracks were a lot faster than they are now.  They have been softened up now a days so they aren't as hard on the horses, but consequently they are slower.  You could compare it to driving on a packed dirt road vs. driving on sandy road, you car will exert more energy to go the same speed on the softer surface.

Maybe so.  That would be a smart move if it helps protect the horses.  You'd think the better training and breeding would make up some of the difference.  The few knowledgable people I've heard talk about swear that Secretariat still wouldn't be touched. 

 

[CAB]

I strongly doubt that He'll ever run again. There's too much downside potential if he gets beat again as far as stud fees.

 

[oakbar]

I agree with some of the others.  Secretariat is still the standard to compare all other thoroughbreds agains.  He was an absolutely phenomenal athlete.

 

[chambero]

I strongly doubt that He'll ever run again. There's too much downside potential if he gets beat again as far as stud fees.

I thought I saw a note in an article that they still planned to run him in the Breeders Cup.

Do they just retire these horses so they don't ruin their reputation?  Seems like they used to run horses a lot longer and a lot never really came into their own until four and five year olds (i.e. Cigar).

 

[Show Heifer]

You "wonder" if stopping the steriods affected him????? Are you crazy????
That trainer should NEVER train again. He was loser before he had Big Brown, and he is still a loser. Why would you brag that your horse is the best in the history of racing, then take him off the only thing that made him that great before the race that could make you hundreds of millions of dollars??? The trainer actually bragged that his horse could win any race, at any time, against any horse, without steriods. Huh, guess he was wrong. The owners do not pay trainers to be full of themselves and their risk their money with their opinions.
The jockey had nothing to do with it. NOTHING. He did the right thing...last is last, regardless of if you beat the horse to the line.
This "great horse" was 100% steriods. That was proven in the race. Steriods "kick in" well into the race, so his "second gear" that everyone was so high on was 100% steriods. That is when they kicked in. Obvsiously, without the steriods, he didn't have that second gear. He isn't a great horse, he is an average horse on steriods.
Steriods are legal in the thoughbred world. So why would you have a horse that was created on them, and race him against every other horse that is on them? Why, except you have a trainer that is so full of himself he can't see his belly (and that's bad!).
With the "invention" of steriods and their wide use today, it just makes you appreciate the horses before that put up those record times many years ago.  Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Man O War, Whirlaway, Citation, War Admiral and Assault were great horses that could put up with great times without steriods. Secretariat actually has the track record in both the Kentucky Derby  and the Belmont.
Tracks are actually considered faster and quicker than they were in those times, so that is no excuse.
And his hoof had nothing to do with it. He was 100% sound.
I would think it would be risky breeding a mare to a "steriod made horse"....if in fact he is still fertile. Maybe, maybe not.
The horses in the past lasted longer due to the fact they were not pushed and poked so hard....these horses of today are burnt up. Wasted by the time they are 4-5 years old.

"Steriods didn't help me hit all those home runs"
"Steriods didn't help me steal that many more bases"
"Illegal drugs didn't help my steer look that much better"
"Illegal drugs didn't make my heifer walk that much better"
"Steriods didn't make the horse run that much faster"
Yeah, whatever.

 

[farmboy]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xoFquax2F-k&feature=related belmont
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QyqllleV6WA&feature=related

 

[showcattlegal]

Even the vet said that he ran the preakness with out them in his system. The jockey was holding him back the whole way (my mom was a jocky so i know what that looks like). If they were that worried about his foot they wouldn't have ran him at all. And for the trainer I know he is a big mouth but his dad was one of the most winning trainers in history. He knows his horses.

 

[Dusty]

You "wonder" if stopping the steriods affected him????? Are you crazy????
That trainer should NEVER train again. He was loser before he had Big Brown, and he is still a loser. Why would you brag that your horse is the best in the history of racing, then take him off the only thing that made him that great before the race that could make you hundreds of millions of dollars??? The trainer actually bragged that his horse could win any race, at any time, against any horse, without steriods. Huh, guess he was wrong. The owners do not pay trainers to be full of themselves and their risk their money with their opinions.
The jockey had nothing to do with it. NOTHING. He did the right thing...last is last, regardless of if you beat the horse to the line.
This "great horse" was 100% steriods. That was proven in the race. Steriods "kick in" well into the race, so his "second gear" that everyone was so high on was 100% steriods. That is when they kicked in. Obvsiously, without the steriods, he didn't have that second gear. He isn't a great horse, he is an average horse on steriods.
Steriods are legal in the thoughbred world. So why would you have a horse that was created on them, and race him against every other horse that is on them? Why, except you have a trainer that is so full of himself he can't see his belly (and that's bad!).
With the "invention" of steriods and their wide use today, it just makes you appreciate the horses before that put up those record times many years ago.  Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Man O War, Whirlaway, Citation, War Admiral and Assault were great horses that could put up with great times without steriods. Secretariat actually has the track record in both the Kentucky Derby  and the Belmont.
Tracks are actually considered faster and quicker than they were in those times, so that is no excuse.
And his hoof had nothing to do with it. He was 100% sound.
I would think it would be risky breeding a mare to a "steriod made horse"....if in fact he is still fertile. Maybe, maybe not.
The horses in the past lasted longer due to the fact they were not pushed and poked so hard....these horses of today are burnt up. Wasted by the time they are 4-5 years old.

"Steriods didn't help me hit all those home runs"
"Steriods didn't help me steal that many more bases"
"Illegal drugs didn't help my steer look that much better"
"Illegal drugs didn't make my heifer walk that much better"
"Steriods didn't make the horse run that much faster"
Yeah, whatever.

What are you qualifications to make these comments?  Are you in the racehorse business??  I really doubt not having the steroids was why he lost.  He hadn't had them since early April I believe.  The drugs are legal in New York, if they needed them they would have used them. 

And how do you get off saying he is an average horse on steroids?  So are all the horses he beat at the Derby and the Preakness below average?  I suppose Big Brown was the only horse to have the drugs...  That comment was just plain dumb.  Thats like saying there has not been a great horse since Affirmed 30 years ago.

And as far as the trainer goes, he gets paid to win races and make money for the owners.  Lets see, Big Brown 5 wins 1 loss, and breeding rights sold for 50 million.  I think he did all right.  As far as being a big mouth, it doesn't bother me as long as people put their money where their mouth is.  He did, and ended up getting beat this last race.  It's people that run their mouth and don't really know what they're talking about is what bothers me.....

The horses have shorter careers now because the money is in the Triple Crown races.  If you can get a horse to peak a 3yrs, win some big ones and then be put out stud, why wouldn't you do that.  Why run him till he's 5, 6 or 7 yrs old and risk a broken leg.  It doesn't make a lot of sense financially.

I've talked to a couple thorougbred breeders and asked them why the horses aren't getting faster and they've said that the horses are faster, but the tracks are slower. 

And as far as the steroid use goes.. Horse racing, professional sports etc are all for our entertainment.  If the steroids makes it more entertaining, why not???

 

[knabe]

The horses in the past lasted longer due to the fact they were not pushed and poked so hard....these horses of today are burnt up. Wasted by the time they are 4-5 years old.

i think he was only lightly raced as a 2 year old, maybe twice?

it seems like it used to be that more horse ran all three races, now a lot of horses skip the races.

training is probably better, as they understand bone deposition a little better.

who knows.

also, there are probably 10,000 fewer thoroughbreds being born today than 30 years ago, with a lot more bleeding issues?

 

[Show Heifer]

"what are your qualifications to make these statements?" Quote from Dusty.

I have worked for a race horse owner/trainer/breeder for the last 6 years. We have spoke on this subject VERY throughly.

The jockey didn't hold the horse back in the last turn....he did exactly what he did every race before that....he just didn't have the second gear as he did before.

The trainer was just so sure he didn't need them to win he took him off of them. That is why he didn't use steriods, the trainers attitude.

And I am pretty sure every horse in those races were on steriods....so not calling them average, they are just better than what they would be without the 'roids.

The trainer does get paid to win races....so makes ya wonder why he took him off steriods doesn't it????

The breeding rights were sold for 50 million. That is correct, but if he was so sure he would win the triple crown, why not wait till he wins it, then sell the breeding rights for 100 million??  Kinda makes ya wonder huh?

Taking a horse off steriods does not take an immediate downfall....but from the racehorse vets I have spoke with, takes 3-4 weeks for the effect to disappear.


By the way....I like your new saying Dusty. I think police should shoot, then yell "stop!"

 

[Jill]

Ok, I don't follow horses at all and this may be a really stupid questions, but if steroids aren't illegal in horses, why on earth would they have taken him off of them?

 

[chambero]

I bet there was definitely a reason he was taken off steroids.  From what I've read on the whole baseball mess, people (and I would imagine animals) use them on a cycle.  You can't just go full throttle on them forever.  I'd bet Big Brown's "cycle" was timed to peak him for the Derby.  Who knows, but I'd guess most of the other horses were either on them or have been at some point. They are legal so it shouldn't be a slur against Big Brown or his trainer that they were used.

Are we sure those horses from past decades weren't on anything?  Maybe not steroids, but I'd bet amphetamines and other stuff just like the baseball players of the day used.  Athletes of any sport (I know - generalization) have always done anything they could to get an edge.

I hate to see the horse and his trainer criticized for not winning.  I thought winning wasn't everything?  He had a heck of a run and it was disappointing to see him not get it.  I like rooting for any big sports accomplishmnent.  There'll be another triple crown winner one of these days.

As I've mentioned, I'm not a big follower of horse racing.  But I do like to watch the triple crown races on tv (not a gambler).  My all-time favorite was the 1989 races.  If I remember correctly, Sunday Silence and Eas Goer were 1-2 in all three races with Sunday Silence winning the first two and Easy Goer the last.  I remember the Belmont and you could tell those two horses hated each other.  They were neck and neck at the end and both horses were fighting their jockeys trying to bite at each other at the end.  Both horses wanted it real bad.

 

[Simmymom1]

I personally have to say that I still think alot of Big Brown.  I still think he is one of those amazing horses, steroids or no steroids he is an amazing athlete and thats my story and I am sticking with it!!!  Things just did not go the right way for him on Saturday for several different reasons, maybe some reasons we will never know about I think.  Anyway, he is gonna have a blast being a stud and living the good life.  GO BIG BROWN - I  still love ya!!  <party> <party>

 

[Rustynail]

Show Heifer I have no idea where you are getting your information from, but you need to find a new sorce.  Tracks are much slower than they used to be.  Look at the video and compare the surfaces.  How much the hoof sinks, what the surface is made of  ect.   

Don't take this statement wrong, because I am not taking anything away from the great horses of the past, but you have no idea what was going through their vains on race day.  Drug testing has came leaps and bounds in just the last 5 years alone.

Also just to clear everything up what type of steroid do you think they are on?  To compare what is legal for horses in reconized racing to anibolic steriod that baseball player and pro wrestler use is absolutely rediculous.  The most commonly used one is (sorry about spelling) equipois.  Which is a testoterone.  This doesn't build muscle or enhance stamina.  It is mostly used to keep horses eating when the are stressed.  My take is he wasn't saying he didn't need the steroid for the horse to be fast and have stamina, he was saying he was eating well and came back good after the second leg.  Which is very impressive.  Most horses who had ran and traveled as much as Big Brown would have gone off feed and lost weigh and their training would have suffered.  That is why winning the triple crown is so difficult. 

I think for you to say Big Brown is common shows you ignorance.  I don't care what type of drug any horse was given, you cannot compete at that level with a common horse.  The horse that ran last in any of those races is in the top 1% in the country as far as being a race horse.  Every horse in any three of those races are great horses.

I don't think it is fair to try to compare the horses of today to Secratariat.  It like comparing the 70's Lakers to Kobe's Laker's today.  You can't do it.  Total different styles, situations, and competition levels.

 

[chambero]

Show Heifer I have no idea where you are getting your information from, but you need to find a new sorce.  Tracks are much slower than they used to be.  Look at the video and compare the surfaces.  How much the hoof sinks, what the surface is made of  ect.   

Don't take this statement wrong, because I am not taking anything away from the great horses of the past, but you have no idea what was going through their vains on race day.  Drug testing has came leaps and bounds in just the last 5 years alone.

Also just to clear everything up what type of steroid do you think they are on?  To compare what is legal for horses in reconized racing to anibolic steriod that baseball player and pro wrestler use is absolutely rediculous.  The most commonly used one is (sorry about spelling) equipois.  Which is a testoterone.  This doesn't build muscle or enhance stamina.  It is mostly used to keep horses eating when the are stressed.  My take is he wasn't saying he didn't need the steroid for the horse to be fast and have stamina, he was saying he was eating well and came back good after the second leg.  Which is very impressive.  Most horses who had ran and traveled as much as Big Brown would have gone off feed and lost weigh and their training would have suffered.   That is why winning the triple crown is so difficult. 

I think for you to say Big Brown is common shows you ignorance.   I don't care what type of drug any horse was given, you cannot compete at that level with a common horse.  The horse that ran last in any of those races is in the top 1% in the country as far as being a race horse.  Every horse in any three of those races are great horses.

I don't think it is fair to try to compare the horses of today to Secratariat.  It like comparing the 70's Lakers to Kobe's Laker's today.  You can't do it.  Total different styles, situations, and competition levels.

I think Equipoise does create muscle.  Way back when (way back before the days of Clebuterol even) I KNOW that specific drug you mentioned was was commonly used in steers to create muscle.  Before steroid use in athletes became as sophisticated as it was, I know college athletes back in the who used various drugs obtained from horse vets for their steriods.  Dumber than dirt, but I know for a fact it was pretty common at the small college level.  I can only imagine what went on in pros.  Just in the last couple of years an NFL player got suspended for use of clenbuterol.  So the comparison is not ridiculous.  But they do help with lots of things including appetite which might be more important to the trainers than the muscle.  But they do both.

I don't care if he used steroids or not.  Doesn't diminish anything to me since it was legal.

I completely agree that its very naive to think drugs weren't used back in the "good old days".  And there certainly isn't anything common about those horses in those races.  They are magnificent animals.