BISS ELEMENT 79 370Z National Champion Shorthorn at Denver

[knabe]

Good point grant on cost of semen.


At least w semen, one doesn't have to buy the bull, feed him, fix the fence, deal with fights, or getting in the wrong field. 

 

[aj]

I have weird tastes........but to me he is just the same ole show ring genetics.....rolled over and over again. Another great big Shorthorn bull with no testicles. Manufactured from day one......but I wish them luck. I hate the color.

 

[shortyjock89]

What does one see in this bull that is so compelling they have to use him  but complain about the price? 


That he was champion twice?

This is what I can't figure out either. The bull is just okay, but if the owners can get that price for the semen, good for them.

If the bull could handle his rear pastern and have some coordination in his front end, he'd be pretty good. He's a big wrecking ball type of animal, not a lot of subtlety. Not saying he doesn't have a use, but I'm not sure he's going to sire an animal with enough quality to compete nationally in the US.

 

[Duncraggan]

Good point grant on cost of semen.


At least w semen, one doesn't have to buy the bull, feed him, fix the fence, deal with fights, or getting in the wrong field.

And, if you do your homework correctly regarding pedigree evaluation, you can use him over a number of generations to reinforce the desired traits at minimal cost. Provided, of course, that he comes from some good prepotent line-bred stock!

I don't know the aforementioned bull's pedigrees suffice to say that I have heard of Horseshoe Creek and have no knowledge of the BISS programme. I am not in Canada or the USA.

 

[sue]

Spring 2015 epds have posted ! Owners of Element are WHR members so his epds are on line. I thought DF Pure Gold ( sire of Element) semen sold for $100/unit back when we had A.I directories?
I am a little surprised the number of breeders that are not WHR ?

Breed Averages: CE 4.04  BW 2.23 WW 47  YW 52  Milk 19.67  Maternal Calving Ease 1.44

 

[Judge]

Sue they say theres a sucker born everyday, i think hes over priced hes unproven big ol bw on him which shorthorns dont need to be any bigger, hes a monster as aj pointed out probably hasnt seen the outside of a show barn, seen aolt of cheaper bulls such as the yesterday bull and bet he will breed more true than element, jist look T the head in yesterday best headed shorthorn i havee seen and hes 20 bucks a dose plis calving ease. Element is just not proven as a bull to demand 100 a dose

 

[justintime]

The BISS program is owned by Jordan Buba, Spruce Grove, Alberta. Jordan only has a few Shorthorns but she has a pile of cattle knowledge from working with her families Lewis Farms breeding herd of about 1000 cows. Lewis Farms has been a world leader in Simmental genetics and they also have some Angus and Limo females. Their annual bull sale usually offers 300- 400 bulls and it is one of the great sales every year. I think the Shorthorn breed is fortunate to have a young lady like Jordan involved and she has already proven that she knows how to get it done.

 

[sue]

Sue they say theres a sucker born everyday, i think hes over priced hes unproven big ol bw on him which shorthorns dont need to be any bigger, hes a monster as aj pointed out probably hasnt seen the outside of a show barn, seen aolt of cheaper bulls such as the yesterday bull and bet he will breed more true than element, jist look T the head in yesterday best headed shorthorn i havee seen and hes 20 bucks a dose plis calving ease. Element is just not proven as a bull to demand 100 a dose

 

[Doc]

Sue they say theres a sucker born everyday, i think hes over priced hes unproven big ol bw on him which shorthorns dont need to be any bigger, hes a monster as aj pointed out probably hasnt seen the outside of a show barn, seen aolt of cheaper bulls such as the yesterday bull and bet he will breed more true than element, jist look T the head in yesterday best headed shorthorn i havee seen and hes 20 bucks a dose plis calving ease. Element is just not proven as a bull to demand 100 a dose

What is the Yesterday bull you are talking about? Maybe someone is not looking for a "calving ease sire". Maybe they are looking for a bull with more than a 22 WW , EPD.  Unless you know the people or the program, how do you know he hasn't seen the outside of a show barn? He's not my cup of tea personally, but what the heck do I know? Not trying to be ugly, but try using spell check? It made my head hurt reading the above post.

 

[Judge]

Doc are you saying calving ease isn't important? I think that, that particular trait is important especially when you get into the non show barn oriented cattle and in the shorthorn breed I think it's extra important to find these bulls that will reduce calving difficulties as much as possible. As for the bull being in a show barn and being feed like a turkey is pretty easy to see he's a show bull, and aswell he probably get out in move a whole lot better just guessing on that one though, he mabey always been supper stiff thank god for BUTE! But like usual a bull dose a bunch of wining, is unproven no daughters in production and can charge the snot out of semen.

 

[knabe]

Doc are you saying calving ease isn't important?

No. Stop being a troll.

 

[Doc]

Doc are you saying calving ease isn't important?

No. Stop being a troll.

Knabe, I don't know if he is serious or just being a troll. Why would you want a cow that is capable of having a 85 to 95 lb calf being bred to a bull that is known for having 70 lb calves? The majority of the  bulls that have that kind of calving ease give up too much performance. Not all but the majority.

 

[RyanChandler]

[ The majority of the SHORTHORN bulls that have that kind of calving ease give up too much performance. Not all but the majority.

I'd agree w/ that

 

[aj]

The thing I worry about when evaluating a bull that won a show...........technology. Nowadays there is so many products to change the appearance of cattle. I saw an ad for a product that is good for "Tailhead" hair. Anyway......today......in order to win a show they half to be on a 100 different products in order to compete. Then......since the birth date is not correct.....chances are the BWt isn't correct. So the animal see's absolutely no natural selection pressure......and his all american mother probably didn't either. If no natural selection is used in the breeding program.....cattle eventually surface that don't stand up to natural selection in the real world. There is getting to be  a heck of a divide between show ring cattle and the overall beef industry. In order to win you have to do it though.

 

[knabe]

News flash, aj doesn't like show cattle.

 

[Judge]

My apologizes to the great knabe of steer planet  . Just take a look at the angus breed they have bws in check and have lots of performance what's wrong with having a 75-85 pound calf and having more performance than a 100 pound calf at birth

 

[knabe]

As usual, you are still missing the point.


Angus have been after lower birth weights and higher yearling weights etc for a couple of decades if not more.  They had the numbers to do it with for a variety of reasons. 


Shorthorns haven't made the commitment till recently and since they have neither the numbers and have a large percentage of show cattle, they like all the rest of the breeds are going to have trouble.


I will say that angus bull users have been looking for angus bulls w more bw recently as performance has suffered. Add in the no-butt look, and other breeds have a small window of opportunity. It will probably tough to fill as low bw bulls of other breeds just don't seem to have the performance either.

 

[frostback]

This post absolutely cracked me up. People arguing over the price of semen, on a bull, no one wants to use.

 

[justintime]

News flash, aj doesn't like show cattle.

I am shocked to hear this!  If this is true, then why does he still show?  I will answer my own question, in that I expect he shows to promote his herd and it also offers him an opportunity to compare his cattle to other breeder's.
I still show, but it is limited to basically one show each year. I expect some of the things aj has mentioned about show cattle are true, but I don't think anyone has to question the birthdate and BW of the Element bull. Personally, I really don't know how big the trophy or banner would have to be, to compare with seeing commercial cattlemen bid on your bulls to about $8000. There is no feeling like it, in my experience! 
Cattle shows may be a bit show biz, but they do have a purpose and they are and will be a part of the industry for a long time into the future. Use whatever parts of them that work for your program, and if nothing works, just ignore what happens in the show ring and design your own destiny.

 

[Tallcool1]

The thing I worry about when evaluating a bull that won a show...........technology. Nowadays there is so many products to change the appearance of cattle. I saw an ad for a product that is good for "Tailhead" hair. Anyway......today......in order to win a show they half to be on a 100 different products in order to compete. Then......since the birth date is not correct.....chances are the BWt isn't correct. So the animal see's absolutely no natural selection pressure......and his all american mother probably didn't either. If no natural selection is used in the breeding program.....cattle eventually surface that don't stand up to natural selection in the real world. There is getting to be  a heck of a divide between show ring cattle and the overall beef industry. In order to win you have to do it though.

I have nothing to do with purebred cattle production, nor am I to be considered a "fan" of the Shorthorn breed.  I don't know anything about aj or the type of cattle that he produces.  We show steers and 1 market heifer.  That's what we do.

With that said, I am going to side with aj's comment regarding technology.  I am absolutely amazed at the amount of different supplements that we feed these show steers.  Supplement them to grow, supplement them to grow hair, supplement them to tolerate heat, supplement them to add fat, supplement them so they can walk, supplement them to control joint health, supplement them for a crappy attitude, supplement them to get them to eat, supplement them to burn off excess fat in the areas that are undesirable, supplement them to retain water, supplement them to shrink back...it is unbelievable!  We use them too, so I am not talking down to anyone!

I can't help but wonder how these show ring market cattle would get along in the feedlot?  With that said, I need to get going now...time to reorder supplements.  It takes awhile.