Black hided myth assc.

[simtal]

I got to wondering if a web site such as Blackhidedmyth.com might be feasable. It would be an assc of cattle people that helped explain the insanity of the black hided myth. If you had backing from the Shorthorn assc, Red Angus assc,Brawnvieh, or whoever you could gather some support for the site. 50% of Black Angus cattle don't grade and the Black exotic cattle are a joke as far as grading choice is concerned. Business is war and we are going to have to compete for market share. The myth that cattle have to be black to be good is insane. When you could pool data and post it online to debunk the myth would it not be good. 30 years ago the industry average for cattle grading choice was 70%. The industry went insane and started making cattle black. Now the industry average is 50% choice. It just seems wrong to me.period. Any takers?.

so I'm a little confused, where is this so called data from these other associations?

http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/54380000/GPE/GPE22.pdf

 

[hamburgman]

There are many reasons for less cattle making choice, not the least of which are higher carcass weights with bigger eyes, and difference in feeding today. 

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

They at least require 1A at shows.  Outside of the show ring there are the categories that allow cattle to be openly crossbred without having to even lie about it.

It's just ironic that you would claim Red Angus is more 'pure' than Angus when they actually have the ability to allow impurity into the breed written into their rules.

Red Angus have different registrations - 1A , 1B and Catagory II are the three primaries. 1A's are 100% Red Angus, 1B's are any thing less than 100% Red Angus and Catagory II is an animal with non breed traits - excess whire, nlack nose, etc. etc. If you are in the seedstock business anything less than a 1A animal is the kiss of death, commercial bull buyers may not care as much but registered animal buyers do, after all a 1B is simply a crossbred animal and can NEVER be bred up to a 1A status. I know of a few people that got into the business without knowing the difference between 1A's and 1B's, they gave good money for 1B's and then had trouble marketing the calves as breeding stock. Some of them took their losses and convertrd to 1A cattle and some just got out it all togather. RW

 

[JSchroeder]

I realize that and have no issue whatsoever with it.  I was replying to AJ's comparison of Red Angus vs Angus breed purity.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

Just clarifying for those that didn't know. RW

 

[JSchroeder]

Oh, that makes sense, sorry about that.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

No worries! RW

 

[GONEWEST]

I was going to say something about CAB but as usual, Grant and Chambero have already said it much better. Your problem is the lack of education by the consumer. 1. Even if they have never seen an actual beef animal they have all heard of "Black Angus" and so perceive that they must be the best since that is all they have ever heard of. 2. They have no desire to be educated on this matter. So it really won't matter if you shout it from the mountain tops if no one cares. It's just a marketing idea that is genius and it's execution is even past that. Just accept it or beat your head against the wall, that's your choices.

 

[sue]

Just about every breed has gone black - leaving very little Heterosis for anyone. I will agree that regardless of what you're breeding do it right and the rest will follow. Now is not a time to stop advertising.

One of our customers sold 63 preg using our  AI bull and Black Angus donors - customer  reordered another 100 pregs. Buyer is a SimXAngus operation. We have recently sold breds to a Black commerical breeder who sells on the grid.  I think the change is here but the end result is still BLACK .... but I dont care cuz my customers are happy and so am I.

 

[aj]

As I understand it the Red Angus cattle were developed by a small group of breeders in Wyoming in the 50's and 60's. They selected cattle strictly by mandatory performance. They didn't show cattle. They lived in their own little world. In the mean time the 1980's rolled in. The Exotic cattle invasion came around. I think the first Chi semen came in around the 1972. The breeds started raising frame 8 and 9 cattle for the showring. Chianina and Amerifax blood was introduced to the Black Angus cattle and milking shorthorns to the Shorthorns in order to play this game. there was Chianina blood in the black angus cattle. Some black angus were set to be thrown out of the Black Angus herdbook because of this. The big money herd(owned by a huge oil co.) threated to retaliate with massive lawsuits if this happened. The AAA did not follow up with the action. Meanwhile the the Red Angus herds didn't do the show ring deal. For the most part they did NOT incorporate Chianina blood into their cattle. They did NOT use Amerifax or holstein blood either. They just kept chugging along with their performance model of selection. That is why there is no doubt in my mind that the Red Angus breed probably is the purest breed as far as foreign blood is concerned.jmo

 

[aj]

There is some data out there I was thinking from a Texas university. It was a study comparing the grading ability of blacks to colored cattle. Not sure it has been published yet. Not sure if it was College Station or where. Zilch difference.

 

[chambero]

AJ - you are apparently not familiar with what some of the verybig Red Angus breeders were doing with Infusions of Saler blood in "1A" cattle.  We inadvertently bought some, showed some, and thank goodness sold em at national sales.  It was a quick trip through for us once we realized what we had

 

[knabe]

Chianina and Amerifax blood was introduced to the Black Angus cattle and milking shorthorns to the Shorthorns in order to play this game. there was Chianina blood in the black angus cattle.

there is also maine and holstein in angus.  genotyping may bear this out if one takes select populations of black angus from the 60's, compare to today, today's black angus may look like a concestor.  i sure would like to see data on the breakdown of angus populations.  there are the eternal rumors that cunia bloodtyped as an angus as well as other bulls and that a few were bred up to angus.  phenotype could be maintained while diluting the genotypes with higher percentage angus.

either way, it really doesn't matter.  it still will be hard to find diversity within any population that can move fat around and combine other traits in demand such as bw and acceptable growth and fertility.

 

[CAB]

 I'm following this deal and thinking, cripes everyone has heard of Angus beef. All of the fast food chains are advertising Angus burger this, Angus burger that. I'm not saying they everyone knows what Angus burger is, but they sure have heard about it and think it must be the greatest thing since sliced bread by now!!!

 

[JSchroeder]

It's nice how you completely ignored the existence of 1B Red Angus in that reply aj.

 

[aj]

I'm not a purist as far as cattle go anyway. I think all major breeds but Angus and Herfords have an appendix program. I personally feel an appendix or a 1b could breed truer then a "purebred". It all goes back to what the individual was bred for. Is there a consistency in traits in the background or a herky jerky,fad of the month,bwts ranging between 70 and 120 pounds in the indivuals background. 1b,1b,1b or not 2b is allright with me.Can't you see? ;D

 

[chambero]

Just to be clear, I really like some of the Red Angus cattle today.  But to pretend that as a breed they are any more "noble" than any other is uninformed.  You don't dramatically change animals in a breed in a relatively short time without a little "help".  Herefords didn't do that is what they are almost irrelevant today - at least compared to what they used to be.

In reference to my earlier post, we had a Red Angus heifer that we bought at the Fort Worth open show back in 88, won the Belt Buckle with her that summer and pretty much everything else we showed at, took her to the national show in Louisville (which was a condition of our purchase from the breeder), and sold her in the sale they had there.  By the time she made it Louisville, she didn't even look Red Angus any more.  I imagine she was 1/4 to 1/2 Saler if truth be told - and she sure wasn't the only one in Louisville that looked like that.

From the looks of them, I doubt the 1A Red Angus cattle have much left in them from what was going on back then.  But I'll bet a nickel there's something - even if its just from the "impure" black angus cattle.  Honestly, they are too good now relative to the dinky "pure" ones in the 70s and early 80s.

 

[aj]

The good ole show ring screwed them up in a hurry didn't it.

 

[loveRedcows]

Just to be clear, I really like some of the Red Angus cattle today.  But to pretend that as a breed they are any more "noble" than any other is uninformed.  You don't dramatically change animals in a breed in a relatively short time without a little "help".  Herefords didn't do that is what they are almost irrelevant today - at least compared to what they used to be.

Finally, someone has noticed the 'dramatic' change in todays' reds....I think it would be really interesting to have major champions genotyped these days.

Our reds are by no means 'dinks' (in fact, some are way too big) but we have not infiltrated the bloodlines to produce the current style...which is why we refer to ours as 'traditional' Red Angus.

As for the 1A vs 1B status, I believe demand depends on the location & type of buyer.  In our part of the country the buyers depend on the reputation of the breeder.  They want bulls that produce small calves at birth that jump up & grow like crazy.  FYI, in the days before DNA testing calves produced in a multiple sire herd (even if all sires were 1A) were designated as 1B, so even if the calf was genetically 100%  it and its offspring were always to be designated as 'impure'.  For us, either/or works in our situation but may not work for others.

 

[LostFarmer]

It is easier to play around with black cattle genetics and not get busted as easy.  Black and polled from the angus masks many an "impurity."  I personally have no problem with cross breeding.  Too many white bellies on the angus.  What about Mule Foot?  Holsteins had it in the early 70's then suddenly the angus had it for a time.  Wonder why the angus cattle got big and milky that fast?  I am not knocking what happened just admit that it did.  How do you think other breeds went black and polled as fast as they did.  There are good cattle in all breeds and junk as well.  I tend to think too often we get color, breed, EPD, and or barn blind to see good cattle.