Black shorthorns

[aj]

I love Red Angus cattle. I love Shorthorn cattle. I don't owe any thing to either breed. The breeds don't owe anything to me. But it seems like I send in 1500 bucks a year to Shorthorn assc. I've done it for 40 years. Seems like they oughta give me a free cap.....or something. Grin

 

[Medium Rare]

The guys who have survived the last 20 to 30 years in the cow calf have done things right. The toughest times were probably the early 80's when alot of people went down. Most of the successful people went to the black hide around here because they did get a premium at the sale barn for them. But the red cow herd is a thing out here now. Some guys love the red angus cow over the blacks. I think it is because the reds are more moderate. There are a bunch of red cattle around Oberlin Ks and Hays Ks.......now adays. You see them come through the sale barns. Solid reds....enough for a semi load......special red angus sale there south of Hays every year. Lacross Ks I think is where the Red Angus special sale is in the fall.

Turning your herd red is becoming popular here too. If the Durham Red deal hadn't been ignored the breed would actually have a dancing partner during the shift. Hindsight, yet unfortunate.

I see trouble brewing in this shift as well though. The people shifting to red are doing so because of what much of the Angus breed did to itself. Take a look at the programs the Red Angus association is putting into place at the top. In order to qualify for those programs you're using they type of bulls that caused many people to change their herd in the first place. I have 4 or 5 daughters getting ready to have their second calf who all need culled. In one generation one of those highly touted bulls absolutely ruined functional udders and put enough toe on to cause concern. Their steer mates would have had fancy tags in their ears and qualified for the top tier program and made some feedlot and one of the 4 packers a lot of money though.

 

[RyanChandler]

Like i said check  out the Pharo Cattle site site and read what he has to say-There are 30 years plus of strict documentation on the cattle in fact they are some of the most documented cattle there are-pretty well disproving what you are claiming The cattle breed and do what they are geared for,the females wean off more of thier bpdy weight than any breed cattle anywhere, they are probably the most efficient at any kind of sustenance conversion ANYWHERE, and the BW to Weanibg numbers are phenominal-and have been over 10s of thousands of examples consistently for many years  O0

Now I'll never begrudge a man for doing a little drinking in the evenings but your post was made way too late in the morning to still be hitting the bottle!? What in the world are you talking about?  Kit Pharo is purebred Angus breeder who, as a marketeer, has also recognized there's a class of buyers who can't recognize expressed heterosis in the flesh so hes expanded his cooperative to include a remote faction of hybrid bulls in order to capitalize off these buyers' lack of understanding.  Don't be surprised, you know capitalists gonna capitalize-

The guys who have survived the last 20 to 30 years in the cow calf have done things right.

Jezus those words make my bones cringe.  Done things "right?"  As defined how?  Most of those folks you have in mind just have enough land so that even with tiny margins and doing things ass backwards, they've had enough total volume to keep the piggy bank full. 

 

[aj]

So your beef is against capitalism or black hides or what?

 

[mark tenenbaum]

So your beef is against capitalism or black hides or what?/// Low input cattle,and from the childish rants-probably out of meds-maybe hasnt seen his shrink in a couple days O0

 

[Gargan]

Black hides matter!!! <rock>

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Black hides matter!!! <rock>///  (clapping) <party> (lol) O0

 

[aj]

I think that x bar makes a good point......you are not going to make a living on 50 cows commercially. Even if you have 250 cows you better not go through a drought or hard times via a calf killing blizzard or whatever. I would guess that the average cow herd size in the United States is what........50 head. It is generally a side enterprise for some one who works in town that has a ag background. The cow-calf deal is usually a side enterprise of a farm or feedlot of some kind. I have always said that a cow calf producer is an idiot financially. There is no money it for all the expense and effort and land it takes to do it. The show calf deal is different. I think that is why there are so many registered cattle herds. People want to generate more than 100 bucks profit per cow per year. Then this generates about 10 times more volume of bulls to sell than the industry really needs.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Thats pretty basic stuff-the grass fed deal males a lot of profit if you have the grass (which is dissapearing, ) and the right market. But this deal is more about the type of cattle to lose money on rather than the logistics of raising them. One person not understanding EPDS might indicate that people just arent too brite in that part of the country-or just think they are LOL. That doesnt make the mere mortals that raise commercial cattle eternally doomed to impure genetics as a group nor are there enough findings other than University and breed tests that support that premise in most real life commercial herds-they aint got time for papers and science for the most part So far in alot of cattle Ive seen in old herds-I really havent seen enough "eccentric" results perse with one percieved trait overshadowing another another etc. They are cattle that load and go-year in year out.There is no foolproof bull of any denomination the meets every parameter for every user if it doesnt work they do something else-And hopefully have sense enough to know what they are getting..Alot of show cattle bulls I see around the country on Craigslist etc come from purebred sales where things got cheap Then there are farm families I meet whose kids are going to stay in AG-They are on judging teams etc. and show thier respective breeds-Trust me they have an idea what EPDS represent-and which cattle are bogus which actually are useable . -There are  parts of the country like Iowa-where guys like Brad Davis sell what would be pretty competitive breed  bulls out of the pen for $3500-5000-No registrations no nothing,just commercial buyers.The commercial guys know good cows when they see them and want to put a little horn and or blue roan in the mix.He even sold 10 heifers after weaning to Mexico-they were red Shorthorns out of a bull I bred called top fuel. No hoopla in the Country-no nothing-unregistered.  O0

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I think that x bar makes a good point......you are not going to make a living on 50 cows commercially. Even if you have 250 cows you better not go through a drought or hard times via a calf killing blizzard or whatever. I would guess that the average cow herd size in the United States is what........50 head. It is generally a side enterprise for some one who works in town that has a ag background. The cow-calf deal is usually a side enterprise of a farm or feedlot of some kind. I have always said that a cow calf producer is an idiot financially. There is no money it for all the expense and effort and land it takes to do it. The show calf deal is different. I think that is why there are so many registered cattle herds. People want to generate more than 100 bucks profit per cow per year. Then this generates about 10 times more volume of bulls to sell than the industry really needs.//// Small purebred herds are a sport of kings But its great to see a good one-Some people sink money in racecars and boats-some in cattle because its enjoyable-in the family whathave you kids grow up-purebreds tend to go. O0

 

[beebe]

I think when we pick for color we give up some things that are more important.  If you want a challenge, how about a white Angus?

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I think that x bar makes a good point......you are not going to make a living on 50 cows commercially. Even if you have 250 cows you better not go through a drought or hard times via a calf killing blizzard or whatever. I would guess that the average cow herd size in the United States is what........50 head. It is generally a side enterprise for some one who works in town that has a ag background." The cow-calf deal is usually a side enterprise of a farm or feedlot of some kind. I have always said that a cow calf producer is an idiot financially. There is no money it for all the expense and effort and land it takes to do it. The show calf deal is different. I think that is why there are so many registered cattle herds. People want to generate more than 100 bucks profit per cow per year. Then this generates about 10 times more volume of bulls to sell than the industry really needs".//// https://www.pharocattle.com/blog

 

[cbcr]

About 75 - 80 percent of the herds in the US fall into the 50 head or fewer category.  This group of producers contribute much to the local economies.  Property taxes, equipment, feed, repairs, groceries, etc and many of them have off farm jobs and incomes.

Some of these producers have registered animals and some raise a few bulls to sell.  Many of these small herds have some very good animals  that can perform quite well, but the bull studs especially  will not give these breeders the time of day.  If you look at sire directories they cater to just a certain few.

Small family farms are a very important segment of agriculture.  No group is hurting more in this group than the family dairy farm.  This year alone has seen hundreds of contracts with  these family farms canceled in favor of larger operations.  Many of these farms have been in production for 6 or more generations.  Was visiting with a small producer the other day that they have been milking cows continuously for 182 years, but they don't know how much longer they can hold on.

When I first started breeding cows in 1974 it was nothing unusual to drive 300 - 500 miles a day and be within 30 miles.  Many of my customers were small dairies. Today we only have one dairy left in the county.  This is happening all over the U.S.

This same scenario is beginning to happen in the beef industry as well. 

There was a time when the Hereford and Shorthorn were king.  But the Angus breed did an excellent job of marketing.  As the old saying goes "If you can't beat'em, join'em", so all the other breeds incorporated Angus into their breeds.  We have had calls the last few weeks from breeders getting fed up with their breed associations because the associations want to cater to the black breed composites.

Do we need a Black Shorthorn? The Breed needs to stay true to its roots and do more promotion of the breed.  If you are going to have a Durham Rex/Shorthorn Plus, they should be 5/8 Shorthorn and 3/8 Red Angus.

Don't mess up a good breed trying to turn them black.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I agree on the color end-I also feel that there is no perfect breed that meets all the traits needed for all users,thats why in one sense breeds need to retain thier chatacteristics and help improve other breeds where something is lacking-and vice versa,I heard there was a movement of sorts to create black Charolais-wonder how thats coming along-with all those mousy cattle in the background-it would have to be the latest mousetrap-but cant see any way you could consistently produce black ones O0

 

[cbcr]

Yes there is a Black Charolais.  They are not diluted with Angus genetics.  The American Charolais Association refuses to recognize them, but the Canadian Association does.  There are a few breeders here in the U.S. and it does appear to be growing.  They do have a Composite they are calling an Equalizer that is influenced with Angus genetics.

 

[librarian]

Xbar said...Now I'll never begrudge a man for doing a little drinking in the evenings but your post was made way too late in the morning to still be hitting the bottle!? What in the world are you talking about?  Kit Pharo is purebred Angus breeder who, as a marketeer, has also recognized there's a class of buyers who can't recognize expressed heterosis in the flesh so hes expanded his cooperative to include a remote faction of hybrid bulls in order to capitalize off these buyers' lack of understanding.  Don't be surprised, you know capitalists gonna capitalize- ...

I'm with Xbar on this one. Kit Pharo bulls could be anything from any number of places that multiply for him from his bulls..or sons of his bulls...which he branded, not bred. Study the cows behind these multiplied Pharo bulls and you'll find the whole Angus bag of worms in there.

I'm very sorry to hear you guys talking about Black Shorthorns..have some imagination and at least call them Durham Blacks...5/8 Shorthorn -3/8 Angus...then at least you would have an identifiable genotype...and use the old Angus that was Angus and the old Shorthorn that was Shorthorn- like Emulation 31 (maybe the most consistent maternal Angus bull)...on the most functional strain of Shorthorn cows around.  Or Pinebank Angus from New Zealand. Aim at producing terrific cows that happen to be black. Although it seems more or less a quarter of them will be red after the first generation. Guess those can be the new wave of Durham Reds.

 

[knabe]

I have always said that a cow calf producer is an idiot financially.


Then this generates about 10 times more volume of bulls to sell than the industry really needs.

sounds like you are saying both are idiots.  seems like you are in both groups. and all you seem to have is crossbred cattle, whine about carriers, and then take them to denver.


i don't think you or anyone else can figure out what you are doing.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Xbar said...Now I'll never begrudge a man for doing a little drinking in the evenings but your post was made way too late in the morning to still be hitting the bottle!? What in the world are you talking about?  Kit Pharo is purebred Angus breeder who, as a marketeer, has also recognized there's a class of buyers who can't recognize expressed heterosis in the flesh so hes expanded his cooperative to include a remote faction of hybrid bulls in order to capitalize off these buyers' lack of understanding.  Don't be surprised, you know capitalists gonna capitalize- ...

I'm with Xbar on this one. Kit Pharo bulls could be anything from any number of places that multiply for him from his bulls..or sons of his bulls...which he branded, not bred. Study the cows behind these multiplied Pharo bulls and you'll find the whole Angus bag of worms in there.

I'm very sorry to hear you guys talking about Black Shorthorns..have some imagination and at least call them Durham Blacks...5/8 Shorthorn -3/8 Angus...then at least you would have an identifiable genotype...and use the old Angus that was Angus and the old Shorthorn that was Shorthorn- like Emulation 31 (maybe the most consistent maternal Angus bull)...on the most functional strain of Shorthorn cows around.  Or Pinebank Angus from New Zealand. Aim at producing terrific cows that happen to be black. Although it seems more or less a quarter of them will be red after the first generation. Guess those can be the new wave of Durham Reds.

///// OH my goodness its the dilution of these cattle to mongrels!! Hpw many unadulterated  pure Angus and Shorthorns are available? Maybe thats why the Shorthorn Assoc now has the Go Blue -deal. Blue roans however-are very hard to produce because neither the Angus nor the modern Shorthorns seem too have enough of the unscrambled genetics to do so.Rather than go into scientific dissertations RE genetics to impress the peasants and particularly oneself-Its safe to say by general numbers-you just dont see many blues-Unless you go back to real old Leader blood-like Proud Jazz O0

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Librarian and XBAR are correct. Pharo cattle is just a big co-op. Not a program. If Pharo was such a good cattleman why doesn’t his cattle have generations of his breeding in them? He’s a good salesman. Most cattle folks follow trends or people they deem cool. I think we all do it when we first start out. You don’t know until you know.

If you want black  cattle use an angus. Why I’m gods name you want shorthorns black is beyond me. Talk about late to the party. Maybe producers should focus on improving their own herds with some line breeding and using home raised sires to develop their own strains. Instead of turning them black so some buyer at the sale barn thinks they are angus. Or maybe simmy. Or maybe limmy. Maybe Gelbvieh. Maybe Saler. Maybe Chi. Maybe Maine.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

And if you need to turn your shorthorns black to be successful, I raise my eyebrow at your cattle breeding abilities.