Black shorthorns

[mark tenenbaum]

It looks to me like he has been producing cattle for a very long time and some of the bulls he raised or saw fit to use 10 or 12 years ago are listed in the semen for sale section of his site.-Anyone who can continue to produce and sell that many bulls and cattle -didnt do it in 2 or three years-regardless of where the genetics are raised.The 10 plus year old Red Angus Angus and Com posit bulls with semen available that THEY RAISED-SOLD for example-are as good as anything out there today in terms of their overall  numbers. I would think some  were ahead of their time or at least at the cutting edge of things-At leastcompared to what I remember 10-15 years ago. They would not be able to  continue in that vein if the cattle were: bogus-just glossed over marketing,etc.There would have to be several thousand head involved at a minimum to produce what they do every year..And for what the cattle are bred for-they have very good performance and stability per the mission they have laid out-Its back to big talk without reading what these guys are doing in effect unfounded-You dont have to agree with the program-but it would not have lasted without some merit-considering their customer base O0

 

[librarian]

E3, yes attempting to breed black Shorthorns is antithetical to Shorthorn breeding. No argument there. In this thought experiment, of course I would not even use Angus to make them black...I would use a superior black polled British breed! Let's not even go there about Pharo...as you say, they won't know till they know.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Well-after all the Pharo negativity I would like to see the documented  commercial bulls and females that you people have produced:those grass fed cattle arent yard ornaments and hobby cattle by any stretch, And they arent even totally committed to black hided cattle-they advertise the RED Gene in alot of thier black bulls-those that think outside of the box are already seeing red cattle sell and produce O0

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I’ll get ya some pics Marc. I’ve been too busy this summer to get any good pictures.

 

[aj]

Excellent points knabe. Been doing the Red Angus-Shorthorn composite deal for 12 years. They are what they are. I got 80 cows and I am essentially free of all known defects. How many purebred Shorthorn hers can boast that. 75 cows are solid red. I am not going to argue that on paper it is best to crossbreed with two different purebred breeds. You might want to call Marty Loving up and ask him what he thought of my cows on the Kansas Shorthorn herd tour a couple weeks ago. They are what they are.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Excellent points knabe. Been doing the Red Angus-Shorthorn composite deal for 12 years. They are what they are. I got 80 cows and I am essentially free of all known defects. How many purebred Shorthorn hers can boast that. 75 cows are solid red. I am not going to argue that on paper it is best to crossbreed with two different purebred breeds. You might want to call Marty Loving up and ask him what he thought of my cows on the Kansas Shorthorn herd tour a couple weeks ago. They are what they are./// Loving is guilty of crossing shorthorns and Angus too-some are black-some are red but I like the red ones of his better seem to be more cmplete-and there have been alot of great clean cattle that emanated from TH carriers etc. O0

 

[knabe]

great clean cattle that emanated from TH carriers etc. O0

absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

great clean cattle that emanated from TH carriers etc. O0

absolutely nothing wrong with that.//// Thanks-finally a mere mortal responds who is as dumb as me (and AJ) (lol) O0

 

[knabe]

tests are to generate clean cattle from carriers.


going to use dalton soon.

 

[aj]

I think that it would be interesting.........if you would take 100 commercial cattle people....( what ever '" commercial cattle people means") and quiz them. The test sample from your state....or ten states or whatever.....which bull has the most economical value.......? Take two bulls.......both them are homozygous polled. Both bulls are similar in frame score. The purebred Shorthorn is roan.....had a 90 pound bwt. he had a weaning weight of 650 pounds. Compare him with a solid red bull......with a weaning weight of 520 pounds......and a birth weight of 80 pounds..... and the bull is out of a 11 year old cow......that has never missed......but the bull is only a 7-8ths Shorthorn. Which bull.......is the ........most valuable.......to the commercial industry......? I don't know the answer.......but how valuable would a survey like this....be...?

 

[aj]

Because I am stall blind......its been 5 years or so since I've been out of the state. What product......is valued.....? I hope that there is always a " purebred bunch of Shorthorn cattle" kept together because genetic diversity is so important in different economic situations situations.......corn prices and what not. But was does the current......economical market place demand......today? If we can take even half blood Shorties......and get them into game.........is that better than nothing? It is a war........trying to get market share in today's market. There are some awful good black angus cattle out there today. What does the Shorthorn breed offer......to get into this mix? You have to crawl into the market. I mean claw and fight and bite into the mix. Stand back and ask yourself.......as a commercial guy in your area......what would gain interest......why would anyone......buy a Shorthorn bull? There are reasons......but how do get your foot in the door? Maybe offer a black half blood bull in order to get people........to your sale......it's called merchandising.....it's called marketing.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Back here they dont see a Shorthorn bull-and very rarely even a Hereford Halfbloods of almost any composite but ear cattle would be a start-as long as they are black mousey or maybe red.The only exception are blue roans which are very hard to come by-they break the bank. I think it comes down to retained ownership that"s how a lot of specialty cattle like non feedlot corn feds, grass feds etc bring  substantial money and the greedy middlemen do not-and the value is " in the carcass not the color" Id hate to live and die by the salebarn morons where  cattle sell for how they grade without then are docked for their color with the packer making all the money O0

 

[knabe]

is the bull:


fertile
able to walk long distances
breeding instead of fighting
hanging out at water trough
lot of others

 

[cbcr]

Because I am stall blind......its been 5 years or so since I've been out of the state. What product......is valued.....? I hope that there is always a " purebred bunch of Shorthorn cattle" kept together because genetic diversity is so important in different economic situations situations.......corn prices and what not. But was does the current......economical market place demand......today? If we can take even half blood Shorties......and get them into game.........is that better than nothing? It is a war........trying to get market share in today's market. There are some awful good black angus cattle out there today. What does the Shorthorn breed offer......to get into this mix? You have to crawl into the market. I mean claw and fight and bite into the mix. Stand back and ask yourself.......as a commercial guy in your area......what would gain interest......why would anyone......buy a Shorthorn bull? There are reasons......but how do get your foot in the door? Maybe offer a black half blood bull in order to get people........to your sale......it's called merchandising.....it's called marketing.

The last 2 weeks we have had calls from 3 different groups of breeders that are fed up with their breed association because they want to ignore the breeders of purebred animals in favor of the Black Angus composites.

This is what has happened to most of the breeds.  Buyers continue to be color blind as investors perceive black hosed animals to be higher quality.

The Shorthorn breed along with the Hereford and Red Poll were some of the founding breeds of this country.

These breeds need to stay true to their roots. To me and many others their is nothing prettier than a red roam Shorthorn.

These breeds are probably more true than the Black hides animals.  You can't take a breed from the small framed animals they were without outside influence, such as the Holstein.

Part of the problem is that as the older breeders of these breeds retire, there is no young breeders to come into the breed to carry on.

These breeds represent an important part of the beef industry.  Take care of these breeds thru careful stewardship, breeding selections, getting young new breeders involved.  Association need to stop playing political games catering to just a few breeders and do what is right for ALL the breeders.  Trying to bring in black Angus won't fix these problems.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I do not agree with black color at all-unless someone is using Shorthorns on commercial cows oe vice versa. No breed will survive just being a show breed for kids till they grow up. Shorthorns for the most part are too hardoing and hard calving but the yield grades etc are very good-and would make a great cross for carcass qualities.  So what do the show cattle boppers do with a (potentially) useful bull-syndicate him or charge $100 a straw Among other things-the numbers as it were wont count for anything with few if any documented calves other rhan show animals-And come up with National Show Females Sired by Salute and then going back to Solution etc- Showing a 0 BW EPD-AS IFFFFF-Sorry-if big Monty allows this kind of FRAUD to be perpretrated then the cattle DO NOT DESERVE CONSIDERATION because nonone can TRUST THE NUMBERS-and thats what alot of people outside the breed think mainly based on someones bad experience-Thats REALLY going to get a breed with very limited use out there. There have been some usefull bulls making thier way to the huddled masses through some of the non show oriented suppliers and then the others like Capiche the Waukaru bulls (most documented cattle in the breed) and some JSF Cattle along with some Canadian Blood. Documented means REAL BWS -Weaning etc Commercial or whatever breeders trust what he old line backwoods suppliers provide in docs-so they use some of the shorthorn-to inject those traits that they find would complement thier program. Who dont know this?  O0

 

[RyanChandler]

Because I am stall blind......its been 5 years or so since I've been out of the state. What product......is valued.....? I hope that there is always a " purebred bunch of Shorthorn cattle" kept together because genetic diversity is so important in different economic situations situations.......corn prices and what not. But was does the current......economical market place demand......today? If we can take even half blood Shorties......and get them into game.........is that better than nothing? It is a war........trying to get market share in today's market. There are some awful good black angus cattle out there today. What does the Shorthorn breed offer......to get into this mix? You have to crawl into the market. I mean claw and fight and bite into the mix. Stand back and ask yourself.......as a commercial guy in your area......what would gain interest......why would anyone......buy a Shorthorn bull? There are reasons......but how do get your foot in the door? Maybe offer a black half blood bull in order to get people........to your sale......it's called merchandising.....it's called marketing.

I think you’re overthinking it AJ-you don’t have to appeal to or convince the industry- you only have to convince one bull buyer at a time.  I retained six bulls last year. Sold three to commercial guys. A two bull sale and a 1 bull sale. Took one to the sale barn. And kept two to use cleanup on my cows: xbar endeavor and xbar empire

I do not agree with black color at all-unless someone is using Shorthorns on commercial cows oe vice versa. No breed will survive just being a show breed for kids till they grow up. Shorthorns for the most part are too hardoing and hard calving but the yield grades etc are very good-and would make a great cross for carcass qualities.  So what do the show cattle boppers do with a (potentially) useful bull-syndicate him or charge $100 a straw Among other things-the numbers as it were wont count for anything with few if any documented calves other rhan show animals-And come up with National Show Females Sired by Salute and then going back to Solution etc- Showing a 0 BW EPD-AS IFFFFF-Sorry-if big Monty allows this kind of FRAUD to be perpretrated then the cattle DO NOT DESERVE CONSIDERATION because nonone can TRUST THE NUMBERS-and thats what alot of people outside the breed think mainly based on someones bad experience-Thats REALLY going to get a breed with very limited use out there. There have been some usefull bulls making thier way to the huddled masses through some of the non show oriented suppliers and then the others like Capiche the Waukaru bulls (most documented cattle in the breed) and some JSF Cattle along with some Canadian Blood. Documented means REAL BWS -Weaning etc Commercial or whatever breeders trust what he old line backwoods suppliers provide in docs-so they use some of the shorthorn-to inject those traits that they find would complement thier program. Who dont know this?  O0

There is not one single syndicated bull in the entire Shorthorn breed that has any value to anyone outside the purebred show circuit.  I’ve never understood where you were coming from with this talk of exclusive genetics that the mere mortals can’t access? 

 

[mark tenenbaum]

There isnt?-Thats a matter of opinion-Red Reward is a good bull that actually meets the numbers posted so does his sire Red Demand who Ive seen several times at Stone Springs. Demand is a commercially oriented bull, Jay Benham runs the cattle that way and feeds alot of them out-like Luett of iowa.Demand goes back to Lauer cattle-one of the few many year Shorthorn herds accessed by show herds,Angus, Charolais-Waukaru The up north cattle like Jungles etc  Hot Commodity does things right with many examples  but its $100 a straw -as stated in my "hypothisis". I still havent seen any of your documented performance cattle that went to commercial or other herds.Just wanted to see the pictures O0

 

[RyanChandler]

Studer’s Taylor Made is a syndicated bull I’ve always liked and would likely use if he were available to the masses.  Certainly have no interest in the Sull bred Maine bulls. Not saybig rheyre ‘bad’ just not something I have any interest as a Shorthorn breeder using.  No need to champion Keith Lauer to me, I hold him in about as high of regard as anyone.  A true cattle breeder.  And you and I are fb friends, take a look at the xbar page if you want to see pics.  Here’s a cool pic-  loving the new lights on the pioneer. Makes checking the cows at midnight a dream

 

[aj]

I rode in a pickup.......the front......with Keith Lauer....while we viewed the Hub ranch herd. He is the real deal......not over bearing, funny, has a good handle on things. I think you could argue he is the best of the best as a cattle breeder.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

People like: Waukaru, Ralph Larson and some other big sky guys, Bakenhus, Kevin Kimmerling,and some of the Michigan and Minnesota and ND breeders are right up there-although most of them other than larson Wally Close and the ND  guys have pretty well left the fold or branched into cattle where they can make a living-JMO-K KIM is by far the biggest (last 8 years or so) loss, he really shut the door quick-heard the simms and Xbreds he has are way good. O0