Breeding for longevity

[RyanChandler]

That's the plan!

And of course they interbred, AJ.  Where do you think red heads came from?  (lol)

 

[aj]

You are a Neanderthal jason. (clapping)

 

[OH Breeder]

I split this topic because I like the info we are discussing.

when I graduated  college many moons ago I worked in an Amish community. They did several studies to see if starting child bearing at earlier age effected life span. Information has been found both ways. Majority says the younger the female to start bearing children can shorten her adult life span. What was kind of interesting was that the older the female was when bearing their first child, IE 30 yo vs. 16 yo, actually had a positive effect on her life span.

So- If the bison wait longer to breed and live longer bearing calves, wouldn't that reduce your future replacement cost by having a female that can produce longer and is healthier vs a female that is burnt out at age 10 and you have to replace?

 

[blackdiamond]

I split this topic because I like the info we are discussing.

when I graduated  college many moons ago I worked in an Amish community. They did several studies to see if starting child bearing at earlier age effected life span. Information has been found both ways. Majority says the younger the female to start bearing children can shorten her adult life span. What was kind of interesting was that the older the female was when bearing their first child, IE 30 yo vs. 16 yo, actually had a positive effect on her life span.

So- If the bison wait longer to breed and live longer bearing calves, wouldn't that reduce your future replacement cost by having a female that can produce longer and is healthier vs a female that is burnt out at age 10 and you have to replace?

Depends on how much it cost to get there...  Which is what some of us point out time after time....  yet, we get critized. 

 

[OH Breeder]

I split this topic because I like the info we are discussing.

when I graduated  college many moons ago I worked in an Amish community. They did several studies to see if starting child bearing at earlier age effected life span. Information has been found both ways. Majority says the younger the female to start bearing children can shorten her adult life span. What was kind of interesting was that the older the female was when bearing their first child, IE 30 yo vs. 16 yo, actually had a positive effect on her life span.

So- If the bison wait longer to breed and live longer bearing calves, wouldn't that reduce your future replacement cost by having a female that can produce longer and is healthier vs a female that is burnt out at age 10 and you have to replace?

Depends on how much it cost to get there...  Which is what some of us point out time after time....  yet, we get critized. 

Well- bison domestic and natural are raised on grass. Grass only. Most of the farms I have viewed only keep grass and grass stuffs available.  I know there's a cost associated with the land the grass is on, but if you can produce a female on grass alone that lives to 25yo  producing calves your input cost would be considerably lower than pushing a female hard and failing.

 

[OH Breeder]

I split this topic because I like the info we are discussing.

when I graduated  college many moons ago I worked in an Amish community. They did several studies to see if starting child bearing at earlier age effected life span. Information has been found both ways. Majority says the younger the female to start bearing children can shorten her adult life span. What was kind of interesting was that the older the female was when bearing their first child, IE 30 yo vs. 16 yo, actually had a positive effect on her life span.

So- If the bison wait longer to breed and live longer bearing calves, wouldn't that reduce your future replacement cost by having a female that can produce longer and is healthier vs a female that is burnt out at age 10 and you have to replace?

Depends on how much it cost to get there...  Which is what some of us point out time after time....  yet, we get critized. 

What i can see its sometimes the package it came in vs the product inside.

 

[jaimiediamond]

Comparing the lifespan of Bison to cattle is much the same as comparing a Donkey (30-50years)to a Horse (25-30 years).  

I was reading this article which I think is highly informative.

Beef Cow Longevity
by Jane Parish – Extension Beef Cattle Specialist, Mississippi State University

The focus of cow longevity discussions is often on dairy cattle. However, to a beef cowcalf
operator, cow longevity is a major factor affecting costs and thereby profitability.
Two definitions for longevity are “the length or duration of life” and “length of service,
tenure, etc.; seniority”. Considering that cows must not just survive many years but also
must be productive in later years to be exempt from culling, the latter definition is most
relevant view of cow longevity to cattle operations.

Productive longevity is the age at which a cow dies or is culled from the herd due to her
presumed inability to continue as a productive brood cow and dam. Unlike cows that
die, cows that are culled have a salvage value. This salvage value increases with
improved cow condition and health. Therefore, it is important to recognize signs that
productive longevity is nearing an end and to market cows in a timely manner before
salvage losses occur. The old saying, “just one more calf” illustrates that some
producers push their luck when trying to get as many productive years out of a beef
female as possible. Beef Quality Assurance guidelines promote timely marketing of
market cows due to their role as an important food source and also from an animal
welfare standpoint.

Greater longevity has its benefits. It allows producers to be retain fewer replacement
heifers and lowers overall replacement costs. When fewer replacement heifers are
needed, the operation can be more selective when deciding which heifers to keep.
Herds containing a larger proportion of mature cows usually have a higher percentage
of calf crop weaned, wean heavier calves, and have lower total energy requirements.
Cow maintenance costs are also spread out over more calves. Increased longevity can
both reduce production costs and increase annual pounds of marketable calf per cow.
For purebred cattle breeders, increased longevity allows greater selection intensity for
other important traits. Disadvantages of greater longevity are that it increases
generation interval and thus potentially reduces genetic gain per year by less
aggressively replacing “old” genetics with improved “new” genetics.

It is not uncommon for breeding cattle to live well into their teens. Some producers even
brag about having cows in their herds that are “old enough to vote”. However, despite
some cows reaching this advanced age and remaining in production, many more cows
typically leave the herd at much younger ages. One large Florida ranch dataset showed
consistent rebreeding performance in its cows through about 8 years of age.
Reproductive performance consistently began to decline at 10 years of age and
dropped even more steeply at 12 years of age. Some research suggests that maximum
longevity for optimum economic returns is within the range of 8 to 11 years for
commercial cow-calf operations.

Longevity is a convenience trait that is highly variable. Yet it only takes small changes in
longevity to greatly impact herd profitability. Many traits influence cow longevity
including age at puberty, direct and maternal calving ease, milk production, mature size,
ability to store body fat (fleshing ability), ability to endure weather extremes, udder
soundness, skeletal soundness, disposition, freedom from genetic defects, and many
more characteristics. Physical soundness limits the productive life of a cow as she ages.
For example, tooth wear and loss occurs over time and affects a cow’s ability to harvest
forage, consume feed, and maintain body condition. Fertility, maternal ability, health,
and survival of a cow and her calves are the primarily determinants of longevity.
Cows are culled from herds for many reasons. Age or bad teeth (57.8% of operations)
was the most commonly declared reason for marketing cows followed by pregnancy
status (25.6% of operations) as reported in the National Animal Health Monitoring
System’s Beef ’97 study. The percentages of operations culling cows for other reasons
were 14.1% for economic reasons such as drought, herd reduction, or market
conditions; 11.7% for poor producing calves; 8.2% for other reproductive problems;
6.4% for physical soundness; 6.4% for temperament; 5.8% for udder problems; 4.1% for
bad eyes; 1.0% for respiratory problems; and 0.3% for digestive problems. Larger
operations, in terms of herd size, were less likely to market cows for economic reasons
than smaller operations. Calving difficulty, advanced age at first calving, and producing
less than one calf per year increase the likelihood of culling.

Valuable data in evaluating cow longevity include records of how long each cow stays in
a herd and the reason why each cow leaves a herd. Whole herd reporting (including
herd inventory reporting) and reporting reproductive data is important to breed
associations tracking longevity for use in genetic predictions. Genetic predictors for
longevity include EPDs for stayability. Stayability indicates differences in the percentage
of daughters remaining in the herd at 6 years of age. Six years is used because a study
showed that cows typically did not repay their development cost until their fifth calf (born
to 6-year old cows if calving annually starting at 2 years of age). Genetic lines that
produce a greater percentage of females producing to 6 years of age are more likely to
also be productive at much older ages and produce more lifetime revenue. Relatively
effective selection for stayability is possible due to moderate heritability of this trait.

Breed differences exist in longevity, so replacement rates differ by breed. In one study,
cows were culled for different reasons, and breed influenced culling reason. Another
study showed that crossbreeding to Brahman increases longevity of cows for beef
producers in the South more so than crossbreeding to Angus, Hereford, or dairy breeds.
Within breeds, a key factor in longevity is matching cow mature size and milking level to
the production environment. When production resources cannot keep up with the
demands of a particular cow size or milking level, rate of culling is likely to increase.

Longevity of crossbred cows is generally greater than that of purebred cows. Crossbred
cows typically live longer and are more productive than their purebred counterparts.
Maternal heterosis (hybrid vigor) increases longevity by more than one year. Because of
the low heritability of cow longevity and lack of indicators of longevity expressed early in
life, implementing crossbreeding systems to take advantage of maternal heterosis
becomes even more important to improving longevity of the breeding herd.

To improve cow longevity, keep good reproductive and herd removal records, take
advantage of the maternal heterosis of crossbred cows, and use stayability EPDs when
available. Decide on the best balance of retaining females in the herd to advanced ages
and culling earlier to increase rate of genetic improvement and protect cow salvage
value.

 

[RyanChandler]

In terms of productive longevity as used above, is like to know what age this is w/ buffalo.  Is define this point when a cows  weaning weights start diminishing.

OH, the shorter lived cow could potentially be more profitable especially if many of the years the older cow lived were after her productive life as defined above.  Perhaps you could have liquidated the first cow and reirnvested in a cow that brings home twice the annual cash flow as the original longer lived cow.  You have to take into account opportunity cost. 

 

[OH Breeder]

In terms of productive longevity as used above, is like to know what age this is w/ buffalo.  Is define this point when a cows  weaning weights start diminishing.

OH, the shorter lived cow could potentially be more profitable especially if many of the years the older cow lived were after her productive life as defined above.  Perhaps you could have liquidated the first cow and reirnvested in a cow that brings home twice the annual cash flow as the original longer lived cow.  You have to take into account opportunity cost. 

Its my understanding from what I can gather- bison wean calves at 6-7 months of age naturally on their own. The one farm I read quiet bit about has a stringent standard of a calves being 45% of the cows weight at weaning. I also like what one bison farmer had to say about his bulls and I quote......

Bulls
Not much to say about bulls. Breeding bulls are chosen just like the cows except they have to be fertile at 18 months. No fancy feed, no blow dryers or hoof paint. They must prove themselves on grass, out with the cows. The replacement bulls also have to be the in the top 5% in performance and have a very mellow disposition. The disposition makes for good meat. Straight legs and a well-balanced physique are required for consideration. If he is too big we don’t keep him.


So what is the opportunity cost lost in having longer producing females verses quicker producing. It seems to me that it would boil down to what the product was. If a cow lives to be 25 and has a dud every year than she doesn't provide much in the way of incentives to maintain her- long lived or not. But if a cow is an excellent producer and excells in production she may surpass the replacement females.

 

[blackdiamond]

I split this topic because I like the info we are discussing.

when I graduated  college many moons ago I worked in an Amish community. They did several studies to see if starting child bearing at earlier age effected life span. Information has been found both ways. Majority says the younger the female to start bearing children can shorten her adult life span. What was kind of interesting was that the older the female was when bearing their first child, IE 30 yo vs. 16 yo, actually had a positive effect on her life span.

So- If the bison wait longer to breed and live longer bearing calves, wouldn't that reduce your future replacement cost by having a female that can produce longer and is healthier vs a female that is burnt out at age 10 and you have to replace?

Depends on how much it cost to get there...  Which is what some of us point out time after time....  yet, we get critized. 

Well- bison domestic and natural are raised on grass. Grass only. Most of the farms I have viewed only keep grass and grass stuffs available.  I know there's a cost associated with the land the grass is on, but if you can produce a female on grass alone that lives to 25yo  producing calves your input cost would be considerably lower than pushing a female hard and failing.

This is a show cattle website, I thought only show cattle things were discussed.  I could care less about bision, I was comparing them (the conversation) to cattle, show cattle especially. 

If you pump a show heifer full of feed, like most do, and don't calver her until later-  is she not going to cost more than one who was raised in a buffalo enviroment?  The deciding factor on how profitable she is- depends soley on what she produces, and how much of it.

now, to counter, I suppose one can bring up the thought of flushing, which is legit... but the earlier a female can be flushed

 

[vc]

The few commercial ranchers I have been around and really spent some time with all followed the same type program. They all retained their own heifers for replacements, they bred the heifers to calve first before the cows started, AI'd one time and turned out with the bull for a month. They culled the open ones and baby sat the rest during calving. By calving at the same time each year the heifers were uniform in age and size, had enough growth to be able to carry and raise their first calf. Started the cows at the time they removed the bull from the heifers.

The reasons that they explained to me is, one they all sold through video sales, uniform calves sell better. Heifers calves had a month head start, this allowed the calves out of calving ease bulls to be closer in size at sale times as the older cows calves who were not out of calving ease bulls. By calving the heifers earlier he could watch them closer, gave them a whole month longer to recuperate prior to being bred for their second calf.

The heifers that were born with a high birthweight or from terminal type bulls were the first to be taken off of the replacement list. The one rancher has been doing this for over 35 years and it seems to work for him and he is a dollar a cents kind of guy. I still have a cow that I purchased as a hiefer from him, she will be 11 this year and on her 10th calf (first calves were twins)
Why would I sell a cow that is consistant at calving, I know what she is and how she produces.


I could sell her for kill cow price and then pay 2500 for a heifer that may not breed. I would rather keep a heifer from her than buy one.


What I see here is a discusion that will go no where, those who believe they generate more money by calving heifers out at an early age and those who believe you get a better product from a heifer and who was allowed to develop more prior to producing. I want to give the heifer her best chance to produce a calf that will grow and have value, for just as long as she can, to me I will wait for her to have both some growth to her and age prior to breeding her.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Points....
Bison bison (North American Bison) and Bison bonasus (European Bison) are different species than cattle, so they differ on many aspects. Like Bos taurus cattle show different puberty ratio than Bos indicus.
I have 5 cases of first calf with 15 months (conception at 6 months age) at natural grass. Was not intentional, but the stupid (or not so) Braford neighborn bull jumped the fence and make the shi*.
Also have today cows with 11 and 13 years yet calving, sold two years ago a cow with 12 years (today 14th) that is with calf at foot. For many cows, the criteria to retire these are the teeth, not age.
Good topic.

 

[RyanChandler]

"Some growth and some age" are subjective terms.  You sale that old cow bc undoubtedly, you are experiencing diminishing returns out of her.  Unless of course she is a super cow and produces better at 12, than a 4-5 yr old version of her would.

 

[vc]

And when the "some growth and some age" I have to feel that she is big enough and old enough, and that is all the matters to me, what you deem is old enough and big enough is for you to determine. As far as the cow, 85 pound calf weaned at 500 pounds at 5 months off of pasture will work for me, maybe not you or anyone else but I'll take it.

I guess that's my point, what works for you may not work for me, it may work but my way does as well.

 

[jaimiediamond]

And when the "some growth and some age" I have to feel that she is big enough and old enough, and that is all the matters to me, what you deem is old enough and big enough is for you to determine. As far as the cow, 85 pound calf weaned at 500 pounds at 5 months off of pasture will work for me, maybe not you or anyone else but I'll take it.

I guess that's my point, what works for you may not work for me, it may work but my way does as well.

As it is the owner or manager of the herd that determines whether the 12 year old weaning off 500lbs on grass would be considered a productive cow or not, depending on forage, weather, and cow condition. I think longevity is determined by the age at which a cow is no longer wanted in the herd due to her inability to continue as to what her owner perceives is a profitable brood cow.  This view covers all aspects of cattle production, purebred, clubby, commercial as in the end everyone wants to make money not be in the red raising cattle.     

 

[RyanChandler]

And when the "some growth and some age" I have to feel that she is big enough and old enough, and that is all the matters to me, what you deem is old enough and big enough is for you to determine. As far as the cow, 85 pound calf weaned at 500 pounds at 5 months off of pasture will work for me, maybe not you or anyone else but I'll take it.

I guess that's my point, what works for you may not work for me, it may work but my way does as well.

As it is the owner or manager of the herd that determines whether the 12 year old weaning off 500lbs on grass would be considered a productive cow or not, depending on forage, weather, and cow condition. I think longevity is determined by the age at which a cow is no longer wanted in the herd due to her inability to continue as to what her owner perceives is a profitable brood cow.  This view covers all aspects of cattle production, purebred, clubby, commercial as in the end everyone wants to make money not be in the red raising cattle.     

I think it should be more precise than that.  A cow should only be compared to her self; to her own track record.  I, along w/ every person on here, would take 500 @ 5mnths as that puts your calves (my educated guess) in the top 1% of calves in the country as far as gains go.  The problem lies when this cow's calf that has always weighed 500 @ 5 now comes in at 470.  And then the next year 465.  And then 455. Not only are her calves becoming lighter thus her yearly profit margin less, her salvage value is decreasing as well.  While this cow is still alive and able enough to conceive, I would contend she's past her production life.  At this point, this cow could be replaced with a producer that can hit the 500. That is the opportunity cost.  The fact that you would have to lay out the exact same amount of $ to feed these two animals yearly yet the returns on one are higher. 

 

[aj]

The main thing that limits cows out here is there teeth. A cow out here is kept untill she shows up open. Alot of time it is caused by bad worn down teeth. The salebarns consider a 7 year old ranch cow done or a risk if they are bred. If ac ow gets grass, cornstalks and is run like a ranch cow very few make it past 10. Now if shes a pet and gets a ton of alfalfa a year.....and has a silage truck named after her thats a different deal. I don't think the diminishing return deal is a factor on wether to keep her or not.

 

[aj]

One very important part of the equation is getting the second calf out of a female under enviromental pressure.It is the biggest wipe out of females. They are trying to still grow......milk........and rebreed. Twig did an article on this deal a year or so back. Now if they are in a show pen it probably isn't a problem if they are getting special diets.

 

[frostback]

And when the "some growth and some age" I have to feel that she is big enough and old enough, and that is all the matters to me, what you deem is old enough and big enough is for you to determine. As far as the cow, 85 pound calf weaned at 500 pounds at 5 months off of pasture will work for me, maybe not you or anyone else but I'll take it.

I guess that's my point, what works for you may not work for me, it may work but my way does as well.

As it is the owner or manager of the herd that determines whether the 12 year old weaning off 500lbs on grass would be considered a productive cow or not, depending on forage, weather, and cow condition. I think longevity is determined by the age at which a cow is no longer wanted in the herd due to her inability to continue as to what her owner perceives is a profitable brood cow.  This view covers all aspects of cattle production, purebred, clubby, commercial as in the end everyone wants to make money not be in the red raising cattle.  











 

I think it should be more precise than that.  A cow should only be compared to her self; to her own track record.  I, along w/ every person on here, would take 500 @ 5mnths as that puts your calves (my educated guess) in the top 1% of calves in the country as far as gains go.  The problem lies when this cow's calf that has always weighed 500 @ 5 now comes in at 470.  And then the next year 465.  And then 455. Not only are her calves becoming lighter thus her yearly profit margin less, her salvage value is decreasing as well.   While this cow is still alive and able enough to conceive, I would contend she's past her production life.  At this point, this cow could be replaced with a producer that can hit the 500. That is the opportunity cost.  The fact that you would have to lay out the exact same amount of $ to feed these two animals yearly yet the returns on one are higher.  

Shouldnt the bull be a factor is weaning weight as well? The cow cant do it all.

 

[RyanChandler]

And when the "some growth and some age" I have to feel that she is big enough and old enough, and that is all the matters to me, what you deem is old enough and big enough is for you to determine. As far as the cow, 85 pound calf weaned at 500 pounds at 5 months off of pasture will work for me, maybe not you or anyone else but I'll take it.

I guess that's my point, what works for you may not work for me, it may work but my way does as well.

As it is the owner or manager of the herd that determines whether the 12 year old weaning off 500lbs on grass would be considered a productive cow or not, depending on forage, weather, and cow condition. I think longevity is determined by the age at which a cow is no longer wanted in the herd due to her inability to continue as to what her owner perceives is a profitable brood cow.  This view covers all aspects of cattle production, purebred, clubby, commercial as in the end everyone wants to make money not be in the red raising cattle.  

I think it should be more precise than that.  A cow should only be compared to her self; to her own track record.  I, along w/ every person on here, would take 500 @ 5mnths as that puts your calves (my educated guess) in the top 1% of calves in the country as far as gains go.  The problem lies when this cow's calf that has always weighed 500 @ 5 now comes in at 470.  And then the next year 465.  And then 455. Not only are her calves becoming lighter thus her yearly profit margin less, her salvage value is decreasing as well.   While this cow is still alive and able enough to conceive, I would contend she's past her production life.  At this point, this cow could be replaced with a producer that can hit the 500. That is the opportunity cost.  The fact that you would have to lay out the exact same amount of $ to feed these two animals yearly yet the returns on one are higher.  

Shouldnt the bull be a factor in weaning weight as well? The cow cant do it all.

Yes of course.  You would obviously have to take this into consideration.  At this point, you could then compare her results to her 'avg' and then her contemporaries to theirs'.  Think percentage change.