Breeding for longevity

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jaimiediamond

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-XBAR- said:
frostback said:
-XBAR- said:
jaimiediamond said:
vc said:
And when the "some growth and some age" I have to feel that she is big enough and old enough, and that is all the matters to me, what you deem is old enough and big enough is for you to determine. As far as the cow, 85 pound calf weaned at 500 pounds at 5 months off of pasture will work for me, maybe not you or anyone else but I'll take it.

I guess that's my point, what works for you may not work for me, it may work but my way does as well.

As it is the owner or manager of the herd that determines whether the 12 year old weaning off 500lbs on grass would be considered a productive cow or not, depending on forage, weather, and cow condition. I think longevity is determined by the age at which a cow is no longer wanted in the herd due to her inability to continue as to what her owner perceives is a profitable brood cow.  This view covers all aspects of cattle production, purebred, clubby, commercial as in the end everyone wants to make money not be in the red raising cattle. 

I think it should be more precise than that.  A cow should only be compared to her self; to her own track record.  I, along w/ every person on here, would take 500 @ 5mnths as that puts your calves (my educated guess) in the top 1% of calves in the country as far as gains go.  The problem lies when this cow's calf that has always weighed 500 @ 5 now comes in at 470.  And then the next year 465.  And then 455. Not only are her calves becoming lighter thus her yearly profit margin less, her salvage value is decreasing as well.  While this cow is still alive and able enough to conceive, I would contend she's past her production life.  At this point, this cow could be replaced with a producer that can hit the 500. That is the opportunity cost.  The fact that you would have to lay out the exact same amount of $ to feed these two animals yearly yet the returns on one are higher. 

Shouldnt the bull be a factor in weaning weight as well? The cow cant do it all.
Yes of course.  You would obviously have to take this into consideration.  At this point, you could then compare her results to her 'avg' and then her contemporaries to theirs'.  Think percentage change.

Every year is different, and depending on what conditions a producer has there may be different variables that affect the production of a cow (a good reason to use performance reporting).  I still think longevity is determined by the age at which a cow is no longer wanted in the herd due to her inability to continue as to what her owner perceives is a profitable brood cow.  This statement summarizes all of the numbers you have included as well as you would be the owner determining whether or not a cow is past being profitable.
 

shortyjock89

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For my ideas to work, you'd have to have large-ish contemporary groups, and it would take a few years to really see results.

You take all the info you can from the cow the first time she calves.  Age when she calves, FS of cow, size of the calf, BCS of cow at time of birth, weight at birth, yadda yadda. Then you take how long it takes her to re-breed, her BCS at breeding, weight of cow at re-breeding, and so on.  Then again when you wean her calf.  Make note of the weather and environmental conditions during this time. You have established a baseline.

Do this for a couple of years with all of your cows and you'll have a crap ton of data. You can average all your data to establish a 2, or 3 or 5 year "average cow" in your herd.  Then obviously you have deviations from this average in all categories and can see what cows exceed in what areas with hard data.  It may surprise you to see which cows really do the best job in your herd. 

I would really really love to compile a ton of data on a few herds in an area and see what's what.  It would be a lot of information to deal with, but it would be interesting.  Things like seeing which cows had progeny return to the herd or produce in another herd to see which cows are producing valuable calves.
 

trevorgreycattleco

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I like olsons idea.

I also think xbar is on to something.

I also agree with vc.


Now, where can I go to get a herd of cows that will raise me that 500 lb calf for 10 calf crops?
 

Okotoks

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trevorgreycattleco said:
What are the main reasons a cow's teeth wear out? Has anybody ever selected for better teeth? Does muzzle shape effect tooth shape or placement? 
I spent a couple of years in eastern Alberta in an area considered semi desert. The soil in the area was sand and it was hard grass. I'm sure both the sand and hard grass contributed to wear on the teeth there because the ranchers in the area commented on it.
 

rarebirdz

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jaimiediamond said:
Comparing the lifespan of Bison to cattle is much the same as comparing a Donkey (30-50years)to a Horse (25-30 years).  

I was reading this article which I think is highly informative.

Beef Cow Longevity
by Jane Parish – Extension Beef Cattle Specialist, Mississippi State University

The focus of cow longevity discussions is often on dairy cattle. However, to a beef cowcalf
operator, cow longevity is a major factor affecting costs and thereby profitability.
Two definitions for longevity are “the length or duration of life” and “length of service,
tenure, etc.; seniority”. Considering that cows must not just survive many years but also
must be productive in later years to be exempt from culling, the latter definition is most
relevant view of cow longevity to cattle operations.

Productive longevity is the age at which a cow dies or is culled from the herd due to her
presumed inability to continue as a productive brood cow and dam. Unlike cows that
die, cows that are culled have a salvage value. This salvage value increases with
improved cow condition and health. Therefore, it is important to recognize signs that
productive longevity is nearing an end and to market cows in a timely manner before
salvage losses occur. The old saying, “just one more calf” illustrates that some
producers push their luck when trying to get as many productive years out of a beef
female as possible. Beef Quality Assurance guidelines promote timely marketing of
market cows due to their role as an important food source and also from an animal
welfare standpoint.

Greater longevity has its benefits. It allows producers to be retain fewer replacement
heifers and lowers overall replacement costs. When fewer replacement heifers are
needed, the operation can be more selective when deciding which heifers to keep.
Herds containing a larger proportion of mature cows usually have a higher percentage
of calf crop weaned, wean heavier calves, and have lower total energy requirements.
Cow maintenance costs are also spread out over more calves. Increased longevity can
both reduce production costs and increase annual pounds of marketable calf per cow.
For purebred cattle breeders, increased longevity allows greater selection intensity for
other important traits. Disadvantages of greater longevity are that it increases
generation interval and thus potentially reduces genetic gain per year by less
aggressively replacing “old” genetics with improved “new” genetics.

It is not uncommon for breeding cattle to live well into their teens. Some producers even
brag about having cows in their herds that are “old enough to vote”. However, despite
some cows reaching this advanced age and remaining in production, many more cows
typically leave the herd at much younger ages. One large Florida ranch dataset showed
consistent rebreeding performance in its cows through about 8 years of age.
Reproductive performance consistently began to decline at 10 years of age and
dropped even more steeply at 12 years of age. Some research suggests that maximum
longevity for optimum economic returns is within the range of 8 to 11 years for
commercial cow-calf operations.

Longevity is a convenience trait that is highly variable. Yet it only takes small changes in
longevity to greatly impact herd profitability. Many traits influence cow longevity
including age at puberty, direct and maternal calving ease, milk production, mature size,
ability to store body fat (fleshing ability), ability to endure weather extremes, udder
soundness, skeletal soundness, disposition, freedom from genetic defects, and many
more characteristics. Physical soundness limits the productive life of a cow as she ages.
For example, tooth wear and loss occurs over time and affects a cow’s ability to harvest
forage, consume feed, and maintain body condition. Fertility, maternal ability, health,
and survival of a cow and her calves are the primarily determinants of longevity.
Cows are culled from herds for many reasons. Age or bad teeth (57.8% of operations)
was the most commonly declared reason for marketing cows followed by pregnancy
status (25.6% of operations) as reported in the National Animal Health Monitoring
System’s Beef ’97 study. The percentages of operations culling cows for other reasons
were 14.1% for economic reasons such as drought, herd reduction, or market
conditions; 11.7% for poor producing calves; 8.2% for other reproductive problems;
6.4% for physical soundness; 6.4% for temperament; 5.8% for udder problems; 4.1% for
bad eyes; 1.0% for respiratory problems; and 0.3% for digestive problems. Larger
operations, in terms of herd size, were less likely to market cows for economic reasons
than smaller operations. Calving difficulty, advanced age at first calving, and producing
less than one calf per year increase the likelihood of culling.

Valuable data in evaluating cow longevity include records of how long each cow stays in
a herd and the reason why each cow leaves a herd. Whole herd reporting (including
herd inventory reporting) and reporting reproductive data is important to breed
associations tracking longevity for use in genetic predictions. Genetic predictors for
longevity include EPDs for stayability. Stayability indicates differences in the percentage
of daughters remaining in the herd at 6 years of age. Six years is used because a study
showed that cows typically did not repay their development cost until their fifth calf (born
to 6-year old cows if calving annually starting at 2 years of age). Genetic lines that
produce a greater percentage of females producing to 6 years of age are more likely to
also be productive at much older ages and produce more lifetime revenue. Relatively
effective selection for stayability is possible due to moderate heritability of this trait.

Breed differences exist in longevity, so replacement rates differ by breed. In one study,
cows were culled for different reasons, and breed influenced culling reason. Another
study showed that crossbreeding to Brahman increases longevity of cows for beef
producers in the South more so than crossbreeding to Angus, Hereford, or dairy breeds.
Within breeds, a key factor in longevity is matching cow mature size and milking level to
the production environment. When production resources cannot keep up with the
demands of a particular cow size or milking level, rate of culling is likely to increase.

Longevity of crossbred cows is generally greater than that of purebred cows. Crossbred
cows typically live longer and are more productive than their purebred counterparts.
Maternal heterosis (hybrid vigor) increases longevity by more than one year. Because of
the low heritability of cow longevity and lack of indicators of longevity expressed early in
life, implementing crossbreeding systems to take advantage of maternal heterosis
becomes even more important to improving longevity of the breeding herd.

To improve cow longevity, keep good reproductive and herd removal records, take
advantage of the maternal heterosis of crossbred cows, and use stayability EPDs when
available. Decide on the best balance of retaining females in the herd to advanced ages
and culling earlier to increase rate of genetic improvement and protect cow salvage
value.
 

aj

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I have heard that silages rot teeth faster. You don't need teeth to gum silage but when grass season rolls around it could be a factor. Also by keeping old cows around......your % death loss of cows goes higher. |They can lay down and assume room temperature........then no salvage value.
 

leanbeef

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I agree this is an interesting thread. Still, I'm amused by the number of us who argue against common sense just to make our point. Obviously, most of us would prefer a youngish cow that does a decent job over an old gummer that's seen her better days. And I think a lot of us--myself included--would take a cow with a little experience over a four-year-old coming with her first calf! This business requires men and women who can balance the extremes and work within optimum areas of productivity. It's not the extremes that put bread on the table and money in the bank year in and year out.

We can discuss all night and day about the best age to breed a heifer or cull an old cow...none of that changes research that has proven it's the females that calve BY their second birthday and stay in the herd longer that make the largest financial contribution to a commercial cattle operation. What exactly does that mean?...well, that's where that common sense comes in to play.
 

RyanChandler

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leanbeef said:
I agree this is an interesting thread. Still, I'm amused by the number of us who argue against common sense just to make our point. Obviously, most of us would prefer a youngish cow that does a decent job over an old gummer that's seen her better days. And I think a lot of us--myself included--would take a cow with a little experience over a four-year-old coming with her first calf! This business requires men and women who can balance the extremes and work within optimum areas of productivity. It's not the extremes that put bread on the table and money in the bank year in and year out.

We can discuss all night and day about the best age to breed a heifer or cull an old cow...none of that changes research that has proven it's the females that calve BY their second birthday and stay in the herd longer that make the largest financial contribution to a commercial cattle operation. What exactly does that mean?...well, that's where that common sense comes in to play.

It doesn't mean a whole lot.  Especially since you didn't include a comparative.... "stay in the herd longer" THAN WHAT?  ...  and the majority of people in this conversation are talking seedstock where 1 calf could bring more than a lifetimes worth of a commercials cow's calves. Where there is more risk assumed, there needs to be more precaution taken. 
 

aj

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I think you gotta calve them out at two. You just can't have any junk big bwt's floating around on either side. If you carried them over a half a year like switching them from spring to fall I could almost see that.
 

Aussie

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Just clocked in to this thread. Some interesting ideas. To me in commercial herds it is hard to justify cows past 10 and some may argue past 8 if the cows calve at two because weaning weight decreases. Seedstock  produces however I feel can justify old cows for the value of the genetics they hold and if still sound at an old age shows their bulls should have longevity and females fertility.
Here is a link to a old cow I bought last year that calved again and is back in calf and still holding condition.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/new-cow-am-i-mad/
 

Mill Iron A

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I agree that age becomes a serious factor for commercial cattlemen if they sell at weaning.  We are mostly commercial and either sell yearlings or retain ownership.  Since we market at a different endpoint not only does it make sense to keep them until they don't breed back or lay down and die, we strive to instill longevity in our purebred cattle.  If the calves that start weaning off lighter and lighter off of the same cow/bull combination due to the cows age then we don't have to worry because they easily catch up during the backgrounding phase.  In reference to AJ's comment we run our cattle very hard, graze out all winter in the northern plains with a protein supplement and some hay if we ever get snowed completely under.  We have 10 year old cows that many confuse as being 6 and under that still do an excellent job in the herd.  A year ago we bought 40 head of purebred red angus from a respectable breeder and the youngest one was 9 years old and the oldest being 13.  Not only did these cows do the job because they were not culled for being open, the also have produced many of the top bulls and females that this red angus breeder has sold including 3 sires that are being used extensively for A.I. in a few different herds.  Even if you sell at weaning you have to appreciate longevity because older cows that still look the part in terms of how many teeth they have, udders, feet, etc. will bring more money when you decide to sell them at the age of 9 or 10 due to diminishing returns.  The only other thought to leave you with is there are producers that do nothing but buy these short term cows, calve them a couple times and then turn them.  If they are your customer you should have a good product for them but more importantly if they can make money at that why can't you too?
 

HAB

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Having longevity can cause lack of income in the seedstock business. ;)

Our repeat customers buy bulls every 8-10 years, because that is when the old bulls need to be replaced.  Some have swapt with their neighbors, causing another 4 year delay in repurchasing.

 

RyanChandler

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HAB said:
Having longevity can cause lack of income in the seedstock business. ;)

Our repeat customers buy bulls every 8-10 years, because that is when the old bulls need to be replaced.  Some have swapt with their neighbors, causing another 4 year delay in repurchasing.

Good point.  Initially, I thought you meant longevity causing lack of income in the seedstock business because of outdated genetics.
 

HAB

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-XBAR- said:
HAB said:
Having longevity can cause lack of income in the seedstock business. ;)

Our repeat customers buy bulls every 8-10 years, because that is when the old bulls need to be replaced.  Some have swapt with their neighbors, causing another 4 year delay in repurchasing.

Good point.  Initially, I thought you meant longevity causing lack of income in the seedstock business because of outdated genetics.

Not necessarily outdated, but a good bull or good cow can become the major influence of your herd, so you have limited candidates to sell to repeat customers.  Obviously the larger your cowherd the more variance you have to offer.  I have had guys come back and buy full sibs to the bull they bought 10 years ago.  The full sibs are natural calves, not ET.
 

RyanChandler

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Nice, 10 years- thats impressive! I hear Galloways are known for longevity.  That be perfect for me because I don't care much for variance as I like to "line them up so tight they can't move." A quote by Jody I really appreciate.
 

trevorgreycattleco

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Aussie said:
Just clocked in to this thread. Some interesting ideas. To me in commercial herds it is hard to justify cows past 10 and some may argue past 8 if the cows calve at two because weaning weight decreases. Seedstock  produces however I feel can justify old cows for the value of the genetics they hold and if still sound at an old age shows their bulls should have longevity and females fertility.
Here is a link to a old cow I bought last year that calved again and is back in calf and still holding condition.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/new-cow-am-i-mad/



That's a good ol cow. I missed that thread I guess. Did you flush her? How ate the calves out of her?
 

Aussie

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trevorgreycattleco said:
That's a good ol cow. I missed that thread I guess. Did you flush her? How ate the calves out of her?
I think is is quite a cow knowing the country she has been on. Happy with her hfr calf and very quiet when going through the chute  <beer>
Did not end up flushing her yet because I was moving and struggling to find recips. So she is in calf to the bull I posted a few weeks ago
-XBAR- said:
That is a great looking cow.  Don't care much for that fin type tail head but overall an excellent animal.
Yes I would agree but I thought there is more good than bad
 
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