Breeding Heatwave to heifers... why???

[TJ]

Yes, Heatwave is the rage in the clubcalf industry & he does sire some really nice steers.  HOWEVER... 

Why do so many people on these boards go for a homerun on virgin heifers by breeding those heifers to heavier birth weight bulls like Heatwave?  I just don't get it.  Yes, you might produce a champion, but the odds are much more likely that you will have to call your Vet & have them perform a C-Section.  What if the heifer doesn't breed back?  Is it worth the risk?  What if the heifer dies?  Is that worth the risk?  You may end up with the best calf in the world, but what if it dies due to complications?  That dead great one will not win any show!!   

I'll admit that I like to stay on the extreme side of things & am overly cautious.  I don't like to pull a calf period & it's obvious by the breed that I raise.  To me 1 calf is not worth risking a heifers future production.  Why not go with a safer bull the 1st time & then try a homerun bull later on?  I can understand that a Lowline sired calf may not fit into everyones plans, but you still have so many better options than Heatwave.  Bulls like Jakes Proud Jazz should not only be easy calving, but he seems to produce some awful nice looking cattle.  If a Shorthorn is not your thing, why not try a Maine bull like TLM Bouncer?  Or an OCC Angus bull?  Or a Red Angus bull?  I just see way too many good bulls that would be a lot easier calving than Heatwave.  Some cows reportedly can't have Heatwave calves, so why would anyone subject a heifer to that type of "potential" torture? 

I'm sure this will get lively, but I just would hate to see someone breed a virgin heifer to Heatwave & have a disaster! 

Anyone disagree?  Am I way off base?  Would you personally use Heatwave or one of the other really popular bulls on a virgin heifer for her 1st calf?  I know I wouldn't.       

 

[farmboy]

i think by now everyone knows thats a really bad idea.

 

[Turkey Creek Ranch]

It's more about common sense....We just got 2 maine heifers, and we are breeding them angus for atleast the first year, maybe the second before we try clubby on them.

 

[JSchroeder]

There are plenty of people who simply do not know.

I was speaking with our neighbor yesterday about what calves they're expecting.  She metioned and I joked "got your puller ready?".  She didn't know why I would ask that.

She only uses Angus (sorry, full sized) bulls on her heifers but there are plenty of people who use bulls because of ads in magazines or word of mouth.

 

[BIGTEX]

Is there anyone on SP that has used HW on heifers? I find that hard to believe.

 

[kane1598]

I don't think that anyone with any clue about the club calf industry would ever breed heifers to Heatwave-that is insane.

 

[Dusty]

When HW first came out I know a guy that bred 15 or so cows to him and that spring after they were born we were talking about bulls and what not and i was picking his brain on what to use on a couple heifers and his response was: "Well, i never touched any of my heatwaves and they look like they'll be decent calves.  I'd try using him."  I didn't do it for other reasons, I didn't think HW was going give the extension that I wanted, but anyways I look back on it and now and think thank god...

 

[Jill]

I may have missed it, but I don't remember anyone on this board breeding heifers to Heat Wave.  I think it has been established that he is not a heifer bull and I can't remember anyone breeding heifers to him.  I will say at my house they don't come any bigger or harder than other bulls we have used, some that should have been calving ease, I think some of it has to do with how you breed him and the management of the cow herd.

 

[CAB]

  I don't know of anyone personally that is involved with their cow herd enough to AI, that would entertain the idea of breeding virgin heifers to Heat Wave.
  Jill, did you once say that you never let a cow bred to HW go over due date? I personally have had great calves out of HW and I also have had a couple of big crashes. I haven't used him for the last 3 years B/C of the crashes. I was trying to get some Wave 6 this last summer, but from what I've heard about conception since, I'm glad that I didn't. Brent

 

[Jill]

No, we don't induce anything, they come when they come.  Ours haven't been small they go from 85-110, but we have that with most any bull, I certainly wouldn't use him on heifers, but we haven't had any trouble on mature cows.

 

[chambero]

I don't know anyone that has bred Heat Wave to a heifer.  I don't know that many people that want to mess with heifers anyway.  Obvious exception is show heifers, but they are breeding purebred so a bull like Heat Wave is not even a consideration there.

I "gave up" and used Heat Wave for the first time this year.  We had 12  out of 19 cows AI'd to him have calves out of him.  Only one required assistance.  That one turned into a bad deal, but due to semi-negligence on our part.  The calf was big, but we didn't find mom quick enough and didn't take care of her properly afterwards.  Lost both.  But the pull wasn't particularly hard.  I'd have to consider the rest of them to be actually smaller than most steer bulls I've used.

Our biggest calf overall this year has been a Yellow Jacket bull calf.  Our biggest calf ever I think was our of one of our herd bulls (a Chi-Ang) and a Meyer GD.  Just a freak deal - that bull never did throwo another calf near that big. 

In the anything can happen with a heifer category, our worst pull by far this year has been on a heifer (Playmate groundaughter, calf sired by calving ease Angus).  I thought it was going to require a c-section but vet got it done the conventional way.  Unfortunately, calf's front legs were hurt pretty bad in the process and had to be put down after a couple of weeks of bottle feeding. 

In my opinion, most people interested in show calves don't need to be buying unbred virgin heifers to make cows out of.  There aren't that many people that know enough of what to breed them to AND have the time and facilities to get them calves out.  There are just issues associated with heifers under the best of circumstances and they take a lot of TLC to give those girls the best chance of coming out ok. 

 

[simtal]

I seen some heifers sell bred to heat wave at foundation female sale a few years ago

 

[CAB]

I don't have a large cowherd, so my #s aren't on a big scale and are most important to me. One year we got along fine, pulled one which was the only backwards upsidedown pull that I have ever had in my lifetime. The next years we lost every HW calf. We had the 140-160lbers out of 13/14 yr old cows had I had owed from birth that we had never pulled a calf out of, so I would say to anyone using HW, anything can happen with him. These were all Spring bred deals, I sometimes think that fall bred cows calf easier with no scientific proof just my own experience and thoughts about what I have had happen over the years. I will more than likely use HW or some of the clones again, but another reason that I personally haven't is that we do not seem to get good replacements out of HW @ all. I would estimate that one third of his daughters milk good enough to keep around and I try to be fair and give them 2 chances, but boy the ones that have not cut it the 1st go around don't seem to be getting any better with age. Brent

 

[LazyGLowlines]

As someone who is just getting interested in club calves and reads about the different characteristics and opinions everyone has on each one I think someone needs to point these things out.  Maybe you all know this, but anyone that's just getting into club calves may not realize Heat Wave would be a disaster on a heifer. And the magazine ads don't mention this, of course.  Heat Wave calves are mentioned quite a bit on SP, which may encourage a newbie to give him a shot.  He's probably not a bull that I would choose, not because he's not a lowline (yes, I'm a lowline breeder) but because he's black and is a TH carrier.  Some don't care about either, and that's great.  There are some very interesting bulls out there that I may consider breeding to one of my lowline cows, so I appreciate all the lively conversations around 'the good ones'.  And I want a smaller birthweight if I'm using a smaller cow, and preferably one that's red.  So I, for one, like to know these things, even if it's obvious to everyone else.  

 

[chambero]

One reason we don't have as many calving problems is the majority of our cowherd is still larger framed cattle compared to a lot of folks trying to raise steers.

I don't know if there are many show steer bulls that I'd use at all on real small Angus cows.  As others have said, its more of a "bone" issue than weight.

I like my Heat Wave calves this year (thankfully nearly all bull calves), but I don't know what I'm going to do for next year because of the issues with his heifers.  That's a real important aspect to our operation.

 

[Jill]

You know after looking at our final breeding numbers this is the 1st year in many that we don't have anything bred to Heat Wave.  If you don't get steers the heifers just aren't big enough to compete in anything but a market class.  Irish Whiskey semen finally came down where we could afford it and we have used him as a replacement for some of those we have been having Heat Waves out of trying to get some heifers calves (clean I hope).

 

[CAB]

We've been talking a lot about breeding some IW for the same reason Jill. Brent

 

[chambero]

We are partners with Griswold on an Angus bull for heifers and we are taking him up to REI on Tuesday next week to get him collected.  Griswold has some clean IW sons on his website that I hope to get to see in person or at least talk to him about.  Thinking about giving those a shot this year.  I saw some really nice Irish Whiskey sons at their sale last spring and I don't know why they wouldn't work for steers.

 

[CAB]

Select is advertising a clean full blood brother to IW this fall. I think that IW's legacy will be the females from what I have seen. I doubt that he'll sire a large amount of steers that will be stout enough to hang in with the "steermakers". JMO. Brent

 

[TJ]

i think by now everyone knows thats a really bad idea.

I agree that 95+% of the posters on Steer Planet do already know that it's a bad idea.  However, I've read a few posts during the last year, on message boards, talking about using Heatwave on heifers.  Matter of fact, I just read something about Heatwave & heifers within the last month or 2.  That just makes me cringe everytime I think about it.  Yes, it MIGHT work OK one time, but what if you get one of those 140-160 lbers. like CAB ended up with?  That would be a disaster on any heifer, no matter how big the pelvis is!!  I just don't think it's worth the risk until that heifer becomes a cow.  Other bulls may not offer quite the calving ease that a Lowline would, but every breed & composite combination has a bull that should at least work fairly consistantly on heifers.  Most realize that, but unfortunately, some don't.         

PS... I mentioned several bulls in my orginal post, but Gizmo is one bull that I forgot to mention.  I've seen some awful good looking calves out of him & he's reportedly a "proven" easy calver.