Bulls siring larger frames

[Medium Rare]

Just curious why you said you wouldn't dare keep any of the 8161 calves??

I don't measure my commercial calves, but they were at least two frame scores bigger than the purebred calves I did measure and lacked depth. Much more terminal in appearance muscling wise than what I want to see in potential replacement females. I would assume they went on to make good feedlot calves though.

 

[RyanChandler]

Its one thing to want Terminal sires that have as much growth potential as your cows and environment can support

BUT

Actively seeking 6-8 frame bulls to sire replacement females is just madness as undoubtedly these cattle will require near year round out of pocket supplementation.  I don't want to put a single penny is my cows from early April until mid November so I just cant relate with actively taking a cowherd in a more costly-production direction.

A 6 frame cow that is built correctly is going to weigh 15-1600lbs.  Zero chance she ever weans half her body weight.

I don't care to look at 3 frames either but at the end of the day pretty is as pretty does and nothing pretty about a 6 frame 1100lb bag of bones.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

A big bull on moderate cows will not necessarily raise the frame scores that much-maybe the weights been there done that including this year-where a 5 or less frame bull (Fresh Air) created what will be a 5-6 frame heifer from a 4.5 +- frame cow,Pics were taken just after she was  was weaned about 2 weeks ago and thrown in with yearling plus simms that are twice her age and big grow-1100 pounds etc-And the roan who will be a year in May-Shes 6.5 months here Had to contend with weaning and fighting them for feed-Well shes real wrung from these two week plus pictures-but she can walk over top of anything of her age and is standing her ground Her dam has huge grow genetics from somewhere-she has raised the biggest calf out of 30-or so from the first calf every year  till now-We are talking mainline Angus-and Simms-and maine Xs all of which are much larger than her O0

 

[Doc]

I don't see frame scores in the Jungles catalog

 

[Building Better Beef]

A bull we have raised and used extensively is a purebred Shorthorn bull, Bell M Foreman 30A. His calves have excellent depth and are very functional. In all the years of using him on shorthorn and Shorty/Simm cross we have never had a spotty calf. 85% of his calves are dark roans. Our Foreman calves are all around frame 6 to 6.5. We have had other herds use him on smaller frame females and have beautiful 6 frame calves. Foreman calves have a long growth period, there is no growth spurts, they keep getting better with age. Daughters we have in production have well uniformed and neat udders with lots of milk. Sons are breeding well in purebred and commercial herds. Semen is available in Canada, USA and Australia. Bell M Captain 139D is a son we are using.

Canadian Shorthorn Association Digital Beef: https://csa.digitalbeef.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=_animal&file=_animal&animal_registration=M477242
Here is a link to him as a coming two year old: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5rU1N6-QtU
On Pasture after the peak of his breeding season: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=508006289542901

 

[Building Better Beef]

Here are a couple of Foreman females. The roan cow calved about 2.5 weeks ago. The white cow was pictured at 2019 Brandon Ag Ex where she was Champion Female. Showchampions seem to have troubles taking pictures of her (lol)

 

[KSanburg]

All of these cows are frame 6 and 6+, weigh from 1450 to 1650, all wean calves near 50% or more their body weight and require no extra inputs above what is considered normal for my area and environment. This is a small cross section of my cow herd, do I have smaller cows? Yes I do, I also have bigger cow's.  Why would anyone want to have 1960's and 1970's belt buckle calves? Very little performance, but then you get what you expect. Each to their own,  I'm not going to belittle your cattle if that's what you like.

 

[idalee]

GOOD Cows!  Mtnman

 

[KSanburg]

GOOD Cows!  Mtnman

Thanks

 

[RyanChandler]

"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want. 

 

[GoWyo]

Every producer's resource base is unique.  If you raise a lot of irrigated alfalfa hay and are short pasture, then the choice is to sell hay or feed it and a higher input-output cow might be in order.  If you are long on grass and short on hay or have to purchase all your winter feed at high cost, then the low input cow might be more profitable.  In a lot of the inter-mountain west, a 1300-1400 lb. cow in BCS 5 is pretty common (even though the guys who don't weigh them will tell you they only weigh 1100).  The forage is usually higher quality, but less bulky than washy grass, and with a lot more steps in between bites, so you will see cows that can tend to have less body depth because they don't need it to get the good from their forage source.  Set your performance and cull parameters and see what pretty actually looks like for the environment they're in.

 

[KSanburg]

"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !

 

[RyanChandler]

"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !

(lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it? 

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s

 

[shortybreeder]

"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !

(lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it? 

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s

There's a difference between "inputs" and "supplements"
Hay is an input and all-but-required in a lot of places (particularly in mountain areas)
Grain is a supplement.

If you weren't so hell-bent on attacking other people you might take a moment to consider the differences.

 

[KSanburg]

"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !

(lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it? 

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s

My cattle get Alfalfa and grass hay in the winter when there is no forage available is what normal inputs mean.

I think it must be impossible for you to understand that there are cattle that perform well and in this case out perform what you are use to. Unlike you I'm not going to judge your cattle or operation because I don't know you or your cattle.

 

[RyanChandler]

"Above what is considered normal for my area and environment"

Nothing revealing here. Everyone knows that if youre willing to supplement half the year, you can have any size cow you want.

Nothing revealing other than your an ass which I have known for a long time. My cattle don't get supplements so shut up about things you know nothing about !

(lol) stop youre hurting my feelings. 

The only thing I've spoken to is specifically what you've stated.

Initially you said they get no inputs ABOVE WHAT IS CONSIDERED NORMAL FOR MY AREA

Now you say "they don't get supplements." 

So which is it? 

Oh and FYI-- "belt buckle" cattle were popular in the 50s not the 70s

There's a difference between "inputs" and "supplements"
Hay is an input and all-but-required in a lot of places (particularly in mountain areas)
Grain is a supplement.

If you weren't so hell-bent on attacking other people you might take a moment to consider the differences.

There's no difference between the two.  They're both feedstuffs whose value for the most part is interchangeable based on quantity fed. 

I've not attacked anyone-- only clarified and pointed out that if you're willing to provide feedstuffs above and beyond what can be grazed in your pasture that you can have whatever size cows you want.

My cattle get Alfalfa and grass hay in the winter when there is no forage available is what normal inputs mean.

I think it must be impossible for you to understand that there are cattle that perform well and in this case out perform what you are use to. Unlike you I'm not going to judge your cattle or operation because I don't know you or your cattle.

Alfalfa-nice- of course they are. 
I'm as objective as anyone on here-- I said nothing negative about your cows-- they look good to me-- but I don't need to know you personally in order to know that 1600lb cows have to be supplemented.

 

[764wdchev]

XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.

 

[shortybreeder]

XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.

^^This. Even 1000lb cows need something to eat in the winter.

 

[RyanChandler]

XBAR, can you define what would be "supplements"? Is mineral a supplement, lick tubs, salt, corn stalks, brome hay, alfalfa, silage, corn?...

I live in the Iowa, we get snow, sometimes deep enough they cannot forage adequately. So for someone to not supplement, I assume you are talking about cattle in the South? Although I know nothing about raising cattle in the South.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, just not understanding, as I don't know of anyone around my area that doesn't feed in the winter.

Supplement is anything that you have to pull cash out of your pocket and buy, as opposed to forages that are naturally grown in your pasture.  There are producers in every state in the country -Canada too- whose cattle graze stockpiled grass all winter. This takes a certain size cow.  Now depending on how big of cow you prefer is going to determine how much you have to supplement from this baseline point. 

 

[Gargan]

Doesn't take a certain. Sized cow, but a certain type , as in easy keeping. I've seen 1100 lovers that are harder keeping than some 1600 lbers