Canada vs U.S. Shorthorn purity

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r.n.reed

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mark tenenbaum said:
-XBAR- said:
How would pics of cattle you saw in '92 have any relevance to the Irish cattle that were infused in the early 70s??//// I DIDNT SEE THE PICTURES-I TOOK THEM.Because those 4 breeders I visited (Deerpark,Highfield,Shannon,and Ballyart)sent the majority of the cattle that came here-and had continued linebreeding them to that point. Edward Quane was certainly in his 80s then-and told me that they had to have an outcross bull-because they were at the end of the road:after 60 years of very little new blood-At that point Hunsley was reying to get Byland Goldwalk over there but the Irish govt was mad at the US Ag dept. for some reason. O0
Apparently Quane must have felt he needed an outcross about 20 years before you were there Mark or maybe he had planned to embark on a crossbreeding program at that time.
 

mark tenenbaum

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Well-there wasnt much left of his herd due to forced slaughter because of some form of TB at that time. He had a group of yearling hiefers out of some of his last Dividend semen that looked just like him-including 2 blue roans and I saw the black commercials they were out of along with 10-or 11 Shorthorn cows he had left.I dont think he considered a purebred like Goldwalk (who certainly was not purebred either:and I discussed why he wasnt-but I thought hed work in lieu of some junk continental) crossbreeding compared to some Limmi or Charolais-And being an Irishman-he wasnt gonna tell anyone anything out of the ordinary. O0
 

phillse

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-XBAR- said:
phillse said:
In my opinion, At the end of the day, breed purity is a breed association issue.  Commercial guys simply want a product that is consistent and performs ie. form and function.  Breed purity main purpose is in providing consistency.  This can be obtained given that the unpure blood is not up close in the pedigree or linebreeding has occurred to allow for more homogeneous alleles.

Occasionally, the cattle gods will send someone to SP who really gets it  (thumbsup)

Thank you for the compliment XBAR.  I am simply a young guy who grew up around cattle and hogs.  Sadly pork production is pretty much a thing of the past down here.  I am a High School Ag. Teacher that loves the lifestyle ag offers.  I can think of not better place to raise my 1.5 yr old daughter and soon to be addition to the family than on a farm  (due end of April). 

I have made mistakes and have tried to learn from them.  1st mistake in late 90's early 2000's was looking at growth too much.  Had some impressive gaining shorthorns that were poor milking, hard doing females.  Used a Canadian Bull Shadybrook Scotty to help rectify the problem.

I have read Jim Lents book several times and even done a lot of reading on Keeney's Corner and I am have adopted some of the ideas of Jim Lents and Larry Leonhardt.
 

knabe

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coyote said:
Looking back was there more positives or negatives by infusing Maine Anjou into Shorthorns ?
They added more growth and muscling into Shorthorns almost to the point of making the Shorthorn breed more of a terminal breed.
They also added the higher flank, harder doing cattle, along with higher BW.
I don't think they helped the carcass quality much, sure they added more yield but at the expense of loosing marbling .

growth from maine's sadly is probably not happening anymore.
 

justintime

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I wasn't going to enter this debate, as many of you know my position on it. Here are some of my thoughts:
1) the past is the past. Mistakes have been made and we should not dwell on them but try to work with the genetics we have. I have been in the Shorthorn breed my entire life and I have watched the breed in both Canada and the US allow certain cattle in their closed herd books from time to time, with little thought as to the purity of these cattle. Can anyone please tell me how Ayatollah was considered a 100% Shorthorn in the Canadian closed herd book? When you consider his pedigree, he would barely make 50% Shorthorn. Many Milking Shorthorns were plunked into the closed herd book that were 50% Red Holstein. You can still find some of these genetics in the backgrounds of some fairly well accepted non appendix Shorthorns in Canada. What is important is that we should be trying to design cattle that work in the beef industry and I oftentimes wonder how much it really matters what their pedigree reads. My bulls pedigrees oftentimes contain blood from many parts of the breed. Most sell to commercial cattlemen. I have not had a single commercial producer ask me whether any bull has an asterisk or no asterisk on his pedigree. Not a single one. The only time I have been asked has been by a few purebred breeders. I have watched breeders walk by the best bull in the pen and select another because the better bull had an asterisk on his pedigree. In most of these cases, the asterisk bull has been as pure or maybe even more pure than the non appendix bull.

2) The debate regarding cattle with an asterisk or no asterisk is in my opinion, the biggest issue holding  back the advance of the Shorthorn breed. I personally have talked with more than a few people who love our cattle, but are so confused after talking with different people in the breed, that they are afraid to jump in.  In the past two weeks I have spoken with two Aussie breeders and they both said that Shorthorn breed associations need to put this debate behind us. The Aussies have done this, and if you check out their herd book, they have done away with the distinction between certain lines. They are now all Shorthorns in their herd book and they feel they have seen the breed move ahead since this was done. Yet there are still many Australian Shorthorns that would have problems being accepted into the Canadian herd book at purebred levels in either the closed or appendix herd books.
3) At one time, I was very much a purist and I felt the herd books should be kept as pure as possible. I watched a wide variety of non pure animals being allowed into the closed herd book and it was when the Irish Shorthorns were dumped into the closed herd book in Canada, I decided that it really did not matter if my cattle carried an asterisk or not. My partners and I brought the Irish cattle into the country, and we never intended them to ever be anything but appendix animals. I still find it interesting that we were the only ones who voted against allowing the Irish cattle into the closed herd book. There is absolutely no documentation that the Irish were pure anything. What many people don't realize is that the Irish strain does not only contain animals that can be traced to the Deerpark or Highfield herds, but it also contains lots of other cattle in Ireland that had no pedigree of any kind. Would someone please find me a Shorthorn in the closed herd book in Canada that does not contain some Irish blood in their background? Believe me, I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to find what I consider to be a true non appendix animal and I have yet to find any that do not have some genetics that I question. 
Not only are the US and Canadian herd books moving further and further apart, but the Canadian herd book is moving further from other Shorthorn herd books around the world. We all have to start to think of the world as being our marketplace. It is oftentimes much easier to move genetics to far away countries than it is to producers living next door to us.
Believe me, I could go on and on, but my point is why don't we all step back and look at what we want to accomplish? The Shorthorn breed is a drop in the bucket when it comes to breeds in the beef industry. No one has a corner on having purer cattle than anyone else. Why don't we all just call a good Shorthorn a good Shorthorn like almost everyone in the industry does? Each of us could still raise whatever we want, and isn't that what this industry is supposed to be about? I have always thought that breeders should document our cattle and let the buyer decide what they want. It doesn't seem to work very well, for the seller to be constantly telling the buyer what they  should be using. Personally, I think we as a breed have done a pretty darn good job of designing some cattle that will compete with any other breed in the beef industry. Of course, we can do more but I often wonder just what we could accomplish if we could get by this hurdle that seems to keep our breeders ( especially new breeders) totally confused. It seems like the cattle have done their part, and now we need to adjust the mindset of the breeders. I have worked with a lot of different breeds in my lifetime, and I believe the Shorthorn breed has so much to offer others in the industry.
I have always found it a bit interesting that the first two breeders to purchase semen from our Irish Shorthorn bull, were two breeders who now call their herds non appendix. These two breeders in fact purchased enough semen to pay for all the purchase, transportation and semen collection we had in Irish Mist. They did not seem to be too concerned that he was an Appendix Shorthorn then. Two years later, after they saw the calves, these two breeders  made the motion to move the Irish cattle to the closed herd book in Canada. It is also interesting that one of these herds is still going strong, and two of their best cow families go back to some commercial red females that I put into the appendix herd book at 3/4 level. In the 70s, I was asked by the Canadian Shorthorn Association to inspect grade cattle that had Shorthorn characteristics and allow them to be recorded in the graded up herd book at 3/4 level. I inspected many cattle in that era, and after these cattle were graded up to 7/8 level ( 1 cross of Shorthorn) they were then allowed into the closed herd book again. Just recently, I was searching some well known cattle here in Canada, and I found that one line goes back to a half blood Simmental cow I bought in Ontario in 1973.
So, I think we have to just stop this ridiculous debate as to what is better and accept that the Shorthorn breed has a bunch of pretty good cattle in it.  The good ones are good and the poor ones are poor. I am totally in favor of documenting our cattle. I am totally against adding cattle to our herdbooks when it seems convenient for some breeders. Personally, I would support a movement to close the herd books to any more new genetics.
 

sue

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phillse said:
-XBAR- said:
phillse said:
In my opinion, At the end of the day, breed purity is a breed association issue.  Commercial guys simply want a product that is consistent and performs ie. form and function.  Breed purity main purpose is in providing consistency.  This can be obtained given that the unpure blood is not up close in the pedigree or linebreeding has occurred to allow for more homogeneous alleles.

Occasionally, the cattle gods will send someone to SP who really gets it  (thumbsup)

Thank you for the compliment XBAR.  I am simply a young guy who grew up around cattle and hogs.  Sadly pork production is pretty much a thing of the past down here.  I am a High School Ag. Teacher that loves the lifestyle ag offers.  I can think of not better place to raise my 1.5 yr old daughter and soon to be addition to the family than on a farm  (due end of April). 

I have made mistakes and have tried to learn from them.  1st mistake in late 90's early 2000's was looking at growth too much.  Had some impressive gaining shorthorns that were poor milking, hard doing females.  Used a Canadian Bull Shadybrook Scotty to help rectify the problem.

I have read Jim Lents book several times and even done a lot of reading on Keeney's Corner and I am have adopted some of the ideas of Jim Lents and Larry Leonhardt.
Scotty bull you refer to is sired by a american bull Deertrail Buckshot. His dam if she lived today would be cloned today by multi american shorthorn breeders. I base my opinion on only her photo but lgs sunshine was just simply ahead of her time ! I felt and feel the same about Buckshot! From the photos Sunshine was a better uddered female then Scotty's dam sired by winalot .... this female in person was a  ton plus actual live weight. I liked scotty but preferred the more moderate sire of Deertrail Buckshot.
 

sue

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ok, I was speed reading thru Grant's post : Yes, I would agree the commerical bull buyer that make the purchase of shorthorn bulls have never  asked about asteriks. Question are usually: calving ease and/or carcass & maternal  ( milk & udder quality).. . The tire kickers of shorthorn bull buyers asks( asterik) but never buy?  Times are a changing. 
 

Okotoks

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sue said:
ok, I was speed reading thru Grant's post : Yes, I would agree the commerical bull buyer that make the purchase of shorthorn bulls have never  asked about asteriks. Question are usually: calving ease and/or carcass & maternal  ( milk & udder quality).. . The tire kickers of shorthorn bull buyers asks( asterik) but never buy?  Times are a changing.
I agree Sue that Buckshot was ahead of his time, he was a very impressive bull. Scotty's dam, Miss Scarlet 10W, udder was not her strong point but Scotty daughters seem to have good udders. 10W's grandsire was Millvale Jubilation 1751 and some of his daughter's had beautiful udders. Scotty has worked well both in North America and Australia.
One of the largest commercial bull buyer of shorthorn bulls in Canada trys to fill his orders with asterisk free bulls. He says because he is using them on crossbred cows he wants them as pure as possible.
 

huntaway

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justintime said:
2) The debate regarding cattle with an asterisk or no asterisk is in my opinion, the biggest issue holding  back the advance of the Shorthorn breed. I personally have talked with more than a few people who love our cattle, but are so confused after talking with different people in the breed, that they are afraid to jump in.  In the past two weeks I have spoken with two Aussie breeders and they both said that Shorthorn breed associations need to put this debate behind us. The Aussies have done this, and if you check out their herd book, they have done away with the distinction between certain lines. They are now all Shorthorns in their herd book and they feel they have seen the breed move ahead since this was done. Yet there are still many Australian Shorthorns that would have problems being accepted into the Canadian herd book at purebred levels in either the closed or appendix herd books.

But shorthorns in Australia are divided in three Societies and possibly more herdbooks. I know the Beef shorthorn society has two herd books and 2or 3 years ago some breeders split from the shorthorn beef society including Weebollabolla and The Grove to form Performance herds of Australia.


 

phillse

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sue said:
Scotty bull you refer to is sired by a american bull Deertrail Buckshot. His dam if she lived today would be cloned today by multi american shorthorn breeders. I base my opinion on only her photo but lgs sunshine was just simply ahead of her time ! I felt and feel the same about Buckshot! From the photos Sunshine was a better uddered female then Scotty's dam sired by winalot .... this female in person was a  ton plus actual live weight. I liked scotty but preferred the more moderate sire of Deertrail Buckshot.

Sue I agree the Scotty females I have are larger than I prefer but he did take the cattle in the right direction.  However, I am unsure if the size is all Scotty or the influence of some of the larger Shorthorn I started with and AI sires I used while  focusing mainly on growth.

It may take a while to reach the balance I seek especially in a small herd.

 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Must to agree with justintime.....this discussion means a big hypocrisy for me.

All cattle - exception for Haumount and some more few herds - show Irish, and as well detailed here for many times, Irish cattle was not pedigree until 70's by the big boom for north america market.

Also here on SP many bulls names were listed as MAine cross and registered as pure Shorthorn, specially on HS herd.....

So, this is a big lost of time keep this discussion!

Now, look for the best animal that you can and raise it. Call it Shorthorns, Durham, Dirham Reds, Plus, MaxiCattle or what you wish.....pure Shorthorn were gone on past....right or not right....very late to know and change it.

I think that on few years follow, after people forget the asterisk fall on USA Ass....all will clame Shorthorn as pure, as I see that many breeders not look for past generations or wish not do it.

Australian Shorthorn are open on 50's back, North American all full Irish and Maine blood, UK also full of Maine blood, South American are full of Lincoln Red.

But, if you wish to clean the breed or make a pure line...well, take off all irish influence, open publically the fake bulls and make deep DNA analises through phylogeny to confirm the purity of last ones.....by other hand...is hipocrisy and lost of time discuss this again!

LESS SPEECHES AND MORE ACTION! This serves for purity and for genetic diseases control!
 

Duncraggan

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sue said:
phillse said:
-XBAR- said:
phillse said:
In my opinion, At the end of the day, breed purity is a breed association issue.  Commercial guys simply want a product that is consistent and performs ie. form and function.  Breed purity main purpose is in providing consistency.  This can be obtained given that the unpure blood is not up close in the pedigree or linebreeding has occurred to allow for more homogeneous alleles.
Scotty bull you refer to is sired by a american bull Deertrail Buckshot. His dam if she lived today would be cloned today by multi american shorthorn breeders. I base my opinion on only her photo but lgs sunshine was just simply ahead of her time ! I felt and feel the same about Buckshot! From the photos Sunshine was a better uddered female then Scotty's dam sired by winalot .... this female in person was a  ton plus actual live weight. I liked scotty but preferred the more moderate sire of Deertrail Buckshot.
Be careful!  The only phenotypically double-muscled animal I have ever had is a Scotty 83K calf out of a grand-daughter of his.  I don't have much/any Maine influence in my cattle, that I know of, in the last 5-6 generations.
Other than that isolated case, I have been very impressed with the progeny and am using a son as my junior herdsire this year.
 

idalee

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Provided that there is full disclosure and freedom of choice,  it would be detrimental to close the shorthorn herd book to outside blood.  Those who want "pure",  whatever that is,  can seek out and use those genetics. Those who want some degree of outside influence can seek out and use those genetics.    Everyone will know what is in an animal as long as there is breeder integrity regarding the recording of pedigrees.    We can all co-exist under one umbrella organization.    Closing the shorthorn herd book would only result in the formation of splinter groups of breeder organizations and degrading  of the breeder base for any one organization.
For me,  I am comfortable with the Irish Shorthorns as Shorthorn.  But,  they are different.  Historically,  the Irish breeders have preferred the Booth type of Shorthorn for 150 years.  At one time there were over 1000 herds of Booth type Shorthorns in Ireland,  albeit,  non-pedigreed.  These herds were developed to suit the climate.  They had to be large framed,  milky,  which produced a very good surplus calf.  For most of the early 20th century,  milk prices were very low and the calf provided the majority of farmer incomes.    In the 1930's,  commercial demand called for a smaller beef cut,  and the Irish breeders imported Scotch Shorthorns which resulted in a smaller animal with reduced milk production.  Since these were unsatisfactory,  some English dairy shorthorn strains were introduced.  This produced a smaller, lighter boned animal,  and so were unsatisfactory as well.    In addition,  as mentioned previously in these posts,  in the 1950's the Irish government started on a TB eradication program which resulted in a radical decline in cattle and herd numbers.    Therefore,  in 1968,  a government sponsored scheme, supported by the Shorthorn Cattle Society of Great Britain and Ireland, was initiated to identify and propagate the type of the breed best suited for Ireland.  A panel of breeders and Department officials selected animals for registration.  Far from  wholesale approval, only about 10% of females qualified and about 5% of bulls were qualified.    As a result,  the "Irish" type were re-established and this was the  type which created the interest from the United States.    As Shorthorn breeders,  were are indeed fortunate that  access to this branch of the breed was available because nowhere else in the world are their Booth type Shorthorns still in existence. 
 
 

caledon101

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Idalee.....some excellent points.
Not sure what the benefits would be to close the Herd Book; especially when breed associations are always focused on revenue generation.
I think there are more important things for the breed to look at such as, why have British beef breeds such as Angus and Hereford re-emerged as dominant forces after the importation of Continental European breeds in the late 60's and the Shorthorn breed has not? I really don't think having an open book versus the closed book strategy of the other two British breeds is the reason. Perhaps I am wrong.
 

Okotoks

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caledon101 said:
Idalee.....some excellent points.
Not sure what the benefits would be to close the Herd Book; especially when breed associations are always focused on revenue generation.
I think there are more important things for the breed to look at such as, why have British beef breeds such as Angus and Hereford re-emerged as dominant forces after the importation of Continental European breeds in the late 60's and the Shorthorn breed has not? I really don't think having an open book versus the closed book strategy of the other two British breeds is the reason. Perhaps I am wrong.
I agree that Idalee had some excellent points. It would be interesting to know the % of Booth blood in the Deerpark, Highfield herds etc. as Ireland was the destination of many of the top Booth bred bulls.
One of the main differences between Hereford, Angus herd books is the fact they remained closed (at least officially ???) . The other difference is the emphasis in Shorthorns on using champion bloodlines in breeding programs. I have seen a shift recently in some of the Shorthorn Country ads to some different bloodlines but the majority of ads are of winning show heifers. A national champion female that won as a yearling doesn't tell you anything about udder quality, the ability to raise a good calf etc. In most cases I feel the Champion of a breed should be a female in production with a calf at foot. The yearling heifers are beautiful in their photos but what about the small number of bulls shown? If you want a share of the commercial market you need to emphsize bulls and females in production, a show heifer is only part way there.
 

librarian

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Okotoks said:
caledon101 said:
I have seen a shift recently in some of the Shorthorn Country ads to some different bloodlines but the majority of ads are of winning show heifers.
Remember that Ralph Larson's CCL6th daughters were cover girls a few months ago! Not that they couldn't be show winning heifers if they wanted to.
http://issuu.com/stephcronin/docs/april?e=2117171/7498118

Also a picture of an old time Booth bull and an old time Scotch bull (not a PUD) that looks derived from Booth type to me. If that is what went into the Irish, then I like it.
 
 

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Hopster1000

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Could the Irish shorthorns add something again now? Breeding lines from Rowanberry and Creaga herds seem to be gaining popularity in the UK. I know some have Canadian breeding and I think Rowanberry are introducing Free Spirit semen to their herd.
These pics are from the Rowanberry line.
 

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