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RyanChandler

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Medium Rare said:
What Oakview alludes to is probably more common than most would admit. Breeding what we want to look at can easily manipulate a herd to where it no longer phenotypically appears as local conditions would dictate. Early weaning, a silage pile, and a mixer wagon has changed a lot of herds in a hurry as well.

Isn't that the truth.  Fortunately, I think more and more people are realizing that adjusting your environment to the cattle is a losing proposition.  Unless you're either a usda welfare farmer or you inherit a lot of land, adjusting your cattle to your environment is the only way you're going to remain sustainable. 
 

oakview

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I find it interesting how things change over time.  The ones that seem to thrive are the ones that are able to adjust and adapt.  I also find it interesting how "experts" are always willing to give "expert" advice.  In the 80's, speaking of adapting your environment to the cattle, one of our neighbors listened to the advice of a college professor and seeded down 320 acres of the flattest, blackest, most fertile soil you could find in central Iowa, about 1 1'2 miles from us.  He divided it into 4 80 acre pastures and bought a group of Hereford cows.  That lasted 3 years.  About 10 miles to the east, a guy listened to the blue silo people and built 4 huge cattle sheds and several of those blue silos.  He bought a bunch of cows to dry lot.  That lasted about 2 years.  I don't know if either financially recovered.  I occasionally have people come into my office for advice.  I tell them to follow me around for a few weeks, watch, listen, and pay attention to what I do.....and then don't do that!
 

librarian

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I am more guilty of armchair natural history than most, but before really championing Bergmann's rule I'd like to point out a real world example from north of the arctic circle.
Phenotypically, these animals don't seem too different from Criollo cattle that occupy the hot dry climate extreme. Maybe arid climate is the selection pressure in these rather than cold or heat.
The video, not wildly viewed since I was #36, does mention a long digestive tract.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wMYaQhz9QoE
Photos of Yakut cattle. Canada would be paradise to them.
It would be interesting to give them more water and see what happens.
 

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Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Yakut and South American Criollo breeds are very very far genetically.
Yakut is an almost native breed from Turano-mongolian branch.
Criollo breeds are degenerated Ibero breeds that adaptat to America.
Phenotype is also diverse.
Yakut are small and blocky, constitution that all cold breeds show to keep warm inside then.
Criollo are big haireless, with more skin surface to help to dissipate heat.
No equall!
 

librarian

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Thanks, CSI.
Maybe you can tell me...how has 100 years in South America changed the Scotch cattle shipped there in the early 20th century?
 

Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR

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Scottish cattle shipéd to South America was not changed by enviroment as Criollo breeds, but they were changed by American blood introduced here by AI.
Shorthorns, Aberdeens and Hereford turn small framed as in USA and after turn huge giraffes straight legs without ribs on 80's. Now they (the breeds) follow differente ways, depending of what kind genetics we use.
The primary change was due american infusion. Not enviroment adaptation.
 
J

JTM

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A lot of talk about environment. Doesn't anyone believe in breeding Shorthorn cattle that can work in any environment? Cattle that do what they are suppose to do should be able to perform in all environments. I understand if you are in a terminal operation you may want large animals. We also have to keep in mind that visual appearance is only a small piece of the puzzle when judging the value or productivity of a cow. Certain visual traits likely transfer to reality but in the end her actual production, longevity, and efficiency is what matters.
 

librarian

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In fact, I disagree with aiming for a Shorthorn that does well.in any environment.
I do agree that we can develop Shorthorn bulls that add value in any environment. That's what got the breed where it was and can be again. "The great improver".
But I stand by the idea that cows of any breed, selected over generations for fertility in any given environment, impart more efficient immune systems and metabolisms to their offspring.
 

RyanChandler

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I think there's a big difference between cattle that 'can work'  in any environment -and- cattle that truly excel because they are most ideally suited for a particular environment.  The implicit cost of utilizing genetics that underperform in your environment is just as great as the explicit cost of utilizing genetics that require more nutrition than your environment can provide. 
 
J

JTM

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librarian said:
In fact, I disagree with aiming for a Shorthorn that does well.in any environment.
I do agree that we can develop Shorthorn bulls that add value in any environment. That's what got the breed where it was and can be again. "The great improver".
But I stand by the idea that cows of any breed, selected over generations for fertility in any given environment, impart more efficient immune systems and metabolisms to their offspring.
I'm not sure we can develop Shorthorn bulls that add value in any environment without aiming for Shorthorns that do well in any environment. I agree with XBar that there will be certain types that excel in certain areas but if they excel in a certain area it would make sense that they under perform in another. One of the issues we have with Shorthorns in the United States is that we have about 5 different breeds within the breed. Some believe this diversity to be a strength but I do not. I believe commercial cattlemen sedstock buyers and feedlot buyers are looking for consistency. Fertility, longevity, and healthy calves have to be at the top of the priorities.
 

mbigelow

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While I agree JTM that a more consistent product is what we should  produce and having the basics in place would resolve some issues I don't think we should narrow our gene pool so much that cattle look identical everywhere.  I just think that breeders should make the best most consistent, optimal performing cattle that fit their environment.  The great thing about this is that when I breed mine a bit too small I can go out and find like minded breeders that produce larger cattle and use that to compliment what I am doing.  The biggest problem out there for our breed is A.I.  people breed this cow to this and another cow to that and quickly have a hodge-podge.  Breeders should be proud enough of what they produce to use it back on their own herds and create large sire groups of similar animals.  That will get us consistency  and may enlighten some breeders.
 

librarian

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I enjoy this kind of thoughtful discussion. There are no right answers.
I think we sometimes are in denial about why the Shorthorn breed is so maleable.
Weren't the Teeswater cattle imported from Europe, making the early Shorthorn strains in Great Britain continental crosses? Shorthorns were crossed on almost every local breed for a hundred years, breeding up the size of the regional landraces, and also breeding them out of existence. Shorthorns were also crossed on the compact muscular cattle that came south as feeders. What we discover with genomics they deduced by observation. Their vision was less complex, but more acute.
Obsession with breed purity in Great Britain is a construct based on the rigid class hierarchy of those times. Shorthorns have consistently been successful at injecting hybrid vigor and serving as a catalyst in composite breeding. Overt and covert injections of other breeds into Shorthorns has made the breed more adaptable. Serial Mongrelization is our history.
Its as though Shorthorns have loose electrons that grab to combine and form new compounds. We can apply that property within the breed with impressive results. But those impressive results are destined to revert to the herd average of the dam. Bringing that average up is our internal challenge and external virtue.
Bigelow's comments are profound. I don't see the point of trying to homogenize the breed for optimal market type. Whose market? I think AI does erode the slow process of deep regional fitness. Until we have stable herds of deeply bred cows and prepotent home bred bulls from those herds what have we accomplished? Buying semen won't get us there. Using the sons of regionally efficient prepotent COWS from like minded programs could stabilize our diverse base.
Like minded means management and selection.
A segment of agriculture is stepping back from mass production and focusing on regionally produced foods for a reason. Cashing in our regional diversity for average quantifiabity erases our genetic peaks to fill in the valleys.


 

r.n.reed

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Good discussion and contributions by all.It is amazing sometimes where these topics lead.I believe the breed needs to be known for what it can offer the commercial industry and then fine tuned to meet the needs of the various environments by breeders in those regions.I agree with Matt that a full tank of semen and no discipline is a quick path to a dispersion sale.As Josh stated maternal efficiency offers the greatest profit opportunity in the beef business hands down.How many Shorthorn bull sale catalogs will give the age of dam,lifetime calving interval, and percentage of cow weight weaned?I wonder how many of us would have our ideal phenotypes challenged if we gave a higher priority to maternal efficiency?
 
J

JTM

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r.n.reed said:
Good discussion and contributions by all.It is amazing sometimes where these topics lead.I believe the breed needs to be known for what it can offer the commercial industry and then fine tuned to meet the needs of the various environments by breeders in those regions.I agree with Matt that a full tank of semen and no discipline is a quick path to a dispersion sale.As Josh stated maternal efficiency offers the greatest profit opportunity in the beef business hands down.How many Shorthorn bull sale catalogs will give the age of dam,lifetime calving interval, and percentage of cow weight weaned?I wonder how many of us would have our ideal phenotypes challenged if we gave a higher priority to maternal efficiency?
I absolutely love the last question Gary! We all need to be asking that question of ourselves. I also like Bigelow and Librarian's comments about being "like minded". It makes a lot of sense that as long as we are making selections based off of the same things then our cattle should be able to compliment one another's to a certain extent.
 

justintime

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This is a very good discussion. I agree that we should remain open minded to what type of Shorthorn another person wants to raise. We do not need all Shorthorns in all parts of the world looking exactly the same. There are huge differences in environments, and there are huge differences in market demands and acceptablility.  For example, an animal with " good hair" has a totally different definition in Australia than it does in North America. A good haired animal in Australia is one that sheds very early and is slick most of the year. Of course, a good haired animal in North America more than likely resembles a muskox ( or at least can be clipped to look like a muskox!).  The UK market demands much larger framed cattle and it is based on muscle and less on marbling. I saw some cattle in Scotland that would be hard to sell in North America, but I also saw some that were powerfully good and would definitely be popular here.

It is always interesting to me, when I see what bloodlines are sought out by breeders in certain parts of the world. Just last night our online embryo and flush sale ended and it was interesting to see what lots were popular with which breeders. There were a few lots that were popular with breeders from several parts of the world, but then we had some where it was basically a few British breeders bidding against each other. We had buyers numbers issued to breeders in 6 countries, 10 US states and 6 Canadian provinces. After the sale was over, an American breeder phoned me and in our conversation, he said he could not believe why anyone would be interested in a certain set of embryos we offered. This set of embryos sold for $1200 each and it was almost entirely breeders from another country other than Canada and the US that bid these embryos to this level. The American said they were the last embryos in the sale he would have been interested in. I also had conversations with several breeders from England, Scotland and Ireland and most of them commented that they were most interested in embryos that did not have US Shorthorn bloodlines. I find this interesting, in that wherever we live, we think we are on the right track in regards to breeding good cattle.
I am open minded enough to realize there are some pretty good cattle in every country and from most any bloodline. Another example... most every visitor we have to view our herd,  asks me about one particular cow when they see her. I intentionally never point her out and just wait to see if they notice her. Here in Canada, I hear so often that American show genetics cannot cut it in the real world. I have always said that this statement is probably partly true. There are some that won't work in most real world situations, but there are some that will work in a lot of different situations. There are also some animals with " non show " genetics that can't really compete in any herd in any environment!  My cow is an American cow that has a US National Champion as her sire, and a US National Champion female as her dam. She is without any doubt one of the easiest fleshing females I have ever owned. She has never had 1 pound of grain since arriving here and lives with the rest of the herd on grass and hay. She is also one of the best investments I have ever made. I paid $10,500 US for her, and she has produced many times that amount in revenue for me. I bought her because I loved her moderate frame, her tremendous depth of body, and her sound structure and great udder. A commercial man who saw her, bought a set of 4 embryos in our online sale last year at $1200 each because he said he wanted his cows to look like her, and he doubted he would ever be able to buy a son of hers. ( he obviously hasn't been to a lot of Shorthorn bull sales!). He implanted all four embryos last summer in some of his commercial cows and has some calves due this spring. He is hoping for all bulls! 
We all see these critters slightly differently and that is what makes this business very unique and most interesting. A few years ago, I had a bull that I had decided was going to be put in our deep freeze as I did not think he was high enough quality to sell in our sale. The day before he was supposed to go to get slaughtered, another bull broke a leg and seeing he did not have a temperature, he replaced this bull to go into the deep freeze. I ended up putting what I thought was my poorest bull in our sale and he topped the sale!  I told my wife that I thought we should just buy our beef from now on, as I obviously didn't know what I was doing!  Last year I decided I was going to leave a bull at home as I did not think he was big enough to go through the sale. Seeing he was cataloged and there was room on the truck, I decided to take him to the sale and if he didn't sell he would just come home again. He sold for $7100 in the sale!  The guy that bought him is super pleased with him as he wanted a small framed bull with a low BW. That is what he got! As I said, everyone sees these cattle slightly differently and everyone is looking for something slightly different.
I see so many breeders who talk negatively about what someone else is doing and/or producing. I used to allow these comments bother me, when I heard a negative comment that someone said about me. My dad is responsible for helping me start to let these comments not bother me anymore. On one occasion, when I had heard what some other breeders had said about what I was doing, my dad said " well, you must be doing something right, if people are starting to talk about you". Since then, I have just basically done my own thing and lived or died by my own decisions and my own successes and lots of mistakes. I oftentimes think that if everyone spent as much time trying to improve and market their own cattle as they do trying to pull others down to their level, most everything would work so much better. There is room in any breed for everyone and we do not need everyone agreeing on everything. I have always said if we all liked the same cow at a sale, there would be one or two that sell really well, and the rest wouldn't sell.
 

librarian

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http://www.manzanoangus.com/category/news/
Came across this series of articles. They are articulate and concise descriptions of practical considerations for profitability in relation to production and environment. I think they present an excellent platform and targets for the Commercial Shorthorn Genetic Revisionists.
There are many Angus breeders of this persuasion. Lets develop bulls that will produce linebred sons selected from efficient cows that will be the go to outcross genetics for these operations.
It's easy to say, but a long road to travel.
 

shortybreeder

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Justintime, very well put! As someone who is relatively new to the breed, I often get plagued with the idea that I need to produce certain types of calves, otherwise they won't sell, but I'm starting to notice what you're saying about everyone sees these animals a little differently. I recently sold my bottom end cow, who was AI'd and due to calve 2 months later than everyone else, for more than I paid for her as a bred heifer, plus I sold her 5 mo old daughter that didn't fit my idea of what a future brood cow should look like for more than what I got from a pair of 8 mo old commercial feeder calves just because someone else liked her "look".
The Association and numerous breeders believe the future of this breed is reliant on commercial acceptance, which may be true, but we as breeders need to be focusing on producing the kinds of cattle that we can sell. The fact of the matter is that in some areas, there is far more demand for show calves than there is for commercial working cattle, and vice-versa. So as much as we would LIKE to produce these hard-working commercially acceptable cattle, at the end of the day it's all about producing the product that is most profitable for us.
Think about a large company like Coca-Cola. They sell their product all over the U.S. and they likely advertise in every state. They would love to just make one commercial, or design just one billboard, but they can't because not every market is the same. Many ranchers applaud the Angus breed for their "improvements" and look down on the Shorthorn breed for its "lack of uniformity." We shouldn't try to be all the same like the Angus breed, fighting for a piece of the commercial pie, but rather realize that our strength lies in the fact that we have numerous breeders all adapting to their individual markets. For some, the market is the high-performing feedlot type cattle, for others the market is affordable 4-H/FFA calves, and for a few the market is nationally competitive show calves.
I believe the main weakness within the breed, is the sometimes inability to notice the differences between these animals, and lack of understanding what your market is.
 
J

JTM

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shortybreeder said:
Justintime, very well put! As someone who is relatively new to the breed, I often get plagued with the idea that I need to produce certain types of calves, otherwise they won't sell, but I'm starting to notice what you're saying about everyone sees these animals a little differently. I recently sold my bottom end cow, who was AI'd and due to calve 2 months later than everyone else, for more than I paid for her as a bred heifer, plus I sold her 5 mo old daughter that didn't fit my idea of what a future brood cow should look like for more than what I got from a pair of 8 mo old commercial feeder calves just because someone else liked her "look".
The Association and numerous breeders believe the future of this breed is reliant on commercial acceptance, which may be true, but we as breeders need to be focusing on producing the kinds of cattle that we can sell. The fact of the matter is that in some areas, there is far more demand for show calves than there is for commercial working cattle, and vice-versa. So as much as we would LIKE to produce these hard-working commercially acceptable cattle, at the end of the day it's all about producing the product that is most profitable for us.
Think about a large company like Coca-Cola. They sell their product all over the U.S. and they likely advertise in every state. They would love to just make one commercial, or design just one billboard, but they can't because not every market is the same. Many ranchers applaud the Angus breed for their "improvements" and look down on the Shorthorn breed for its "lack of uniformity." We shouldn't try to be all the same like the Angus breed, fighting for a piece of the commercial pie, but rather realize that our strength lies in the fact that we have numerous breeders all adapting to their individual markets. For some, the market is the high-performing feedlot type cattle, for others the market is affordable 4-H/FFA calves, and for a few the market is nationally competitive show calves.
I believe the main weakness within the breed, is the sometimes inability to notice the differences between these animals, and lack of understanding what your market is.
Sb, I agree with what you are saying about people breeding what they want and marketing how they want. I live in western Ohio in the heart of club calf country. I've played both ends of the Shorthorn deal. To me the differences between the Shorthorns are really easy to see because of my experience with all types of Shorthorns. I've had the "larger breeding heifer national show type", the "moderate fluffy jackpot show shorthorn, the "larger growth type commercial shorthorn", and now focusing on "moderate maternal and efficient shorthorn" type. The animals I am raising now can be marketed pretty much anywhere across the country and I believe they will thrive. With this being said, I can't say that all of the other types of Shorthorns I have experienced can do that. So that is where I am coming from with my thoughts on this subject. I think to many of us Shorthorn breeders the differences in the separate Shorthorn types are evident but many are unwilling to discuss the actual differences in their overall performance. There is too much facade and not enough transparency. This is the reason I talk about there needing to be more consistency in Shorthorns. We will never be accepted commercially if we can't take out the risk for the commercial cow calf operator.
 

shortybreeder

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JTM you seem very knowledgeable about the different facets of the breed, and I respect that. I think the issue with trying to unify the breeders and focusing on commercially accepted cattle is that it's very hard for us smaller operators to get into marketing seedstock for those buyers because many of them will only buy from large producers who do a lot of performance testing. A small breeder can have the bull with the greatest genetic potential in the US, but if he doesn't have a dozen contemporaries to show up then he doesn't look as good. This is where the jackpot cattle production comes in.

I think the issue is not so much a matter of breeders going into the show business, but rather an issue of so many new families coming into the breed, buying the showy stuff, and then breeding mutts for years until they eventually leave the business. I'll admit I almost fell into this trap, but have been fortunate enough to have a long-term mentor who took care to make sure I was breeding solid working cattle instead of following fads. I believe it is this mass production of mutt/reject show cattle flowing into sales barns that has destroyed the breeds reputation amongst commercial cattlemen.
So rather than pressuring old breeders, that are likely stuck in their ways, into changing the type of cattle they produce, we should be emphasizing the importance of mentoring new breeders. This will in turn help reduce risk for commercial buyers by reducing the number of low-performance cattle being traded.
 
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