clones just hype...

[Steered]

I have not started any trouble in awhile so here it goes...
Years ago when you wanted a club calf you went to a breeder that that had good cattle because he knew how to pick/buy bulls that worked on his cows and his calves were the proof that he knew what he was doing.  Then some people started using AI and the perception was that he calves must be better as he used and AI bull.  Any bull worth collecting must be better that that other guys herd bull.  Maybe the AI calves were better, maybe not.  Many breeders started advertising "all AI sired calves" to make more sales.  Then when everybody is selling AI sired calves you need to set your program apart from the others so now the next guy gets a "Donor" and has ET calves.  If AI sired is better that herd bull sired, then ET calves must be better since the donor has to be better than  a cow not worth flushing.  Now it seems as though now your program isn't cutting edge unless you have a clone (or 2 or 3 or 11).  Do we really need all these clones or it is just hype to make your program stand out from the crowd?  Now don't think that my opinion is that AI or ET are bad things.. I think that they are very usefull and have there place.  I just feel that there are too many bulls being collected and promoted and possibly too many cows being flushed that maybe shouldn't be.  And definetly too many clones out there as if they were good enough to be cloned then they should have already outproduced themselves.  This isn't aimed at anyone on hear in particular, just my opinion of things.  Remember, opininons are like rear ends...everyone has one and most of them stink!  Now tear me apart...

 

[knabe]

there always has to be too many collected, otherwise how could you try something new?

the reason there is probably so many clones out there is to see if one rises to the top.

how else could you find something out without trying?

just like the cow posted looking for who to flush for.  i wouldn't be trying to get a saleable product out of her, particularly since she's 10.  i would be trying to replace her along with some terminals so you could see if she works for that too. you won't find too many 7/8ths that look like her.

i feel that females are probably what need to be cloned and not the bulls, at least in such a high number.

 

[LN]

I kinda agree, there are lots of bulls collected that shouldn't be, and cows flushed that shouldn't be.

It's my job as a breeder sort through the muck and try to find those diamond in the roughs, or use bulls that are already shining.

 

[angusbreed]

just the way it is, the money some of these calves bring will stop it from changing.  I got kids that call me looking and all they want to know is the sire's name, before they will even step out into the field.  I just sold a monopoly calf for over 11 and I know it is going to be sold again for a lot more to some family that has $$$ and wants to win a big one.

Growing up, I would go to a local producer or to and pick it out of the herd and if I wanted to see the bull I could look in the same pasture.

 

[Jill]

All I can say is your just an old shit starter! 
I'd even consider showing a Hereford that looked like your avatar. (clapping)

 

[simtal]

I  And definetly too many clones out there as if they were good enough to be cloned then they should have already outproduced themselves. 

I don't know if you understand the purpose of clones.  Clones are made because they produced well.  People don't just clone anything.  We're talkin $30,000-40,000 here. 

People that buy cattle because they are AI sired or the result of ET or Clone are stupid.

Buy the best one, if you don't what that is, your in the wrong business.

I think clones are useful, if your bull dies and he's a great one, sure why not clone him if the economics justify.
Big difference between people who make their living selling semen and those selling calves.

 

[Steered]

I don't know if you understand the purpose of clones.  Clones are made because they produced well.  People don't just clone anything.  We're talkin $30,000-40,000 here. 

They all have produced well?  Aren't some of the clones, clones of steers that have won shows?  How many calves have those steers sired?  Might have been a great steer, but may not be a great sire.

People that buy cattle because they are AI sired or the result of ET or Clone are stupid.

I thought that was what I was getting at.. 

Buy the best one, if you don't (know) what that is, your in the wrong business.

You are right--buy the best one no matter what he is sired by.  Knowing the sire may give you an idea of how he will turn out, but does not guarentee anything.  Have talked to more that one breeder that can't even get people to look at some calves if they are not out of a big name bull.

I am not saying that someone can't produce a clone if they want to, it is their money to spend as they please.  I just think that the number of clones out there is probably more than there should be.  It is more advertising that real world need in my opinion. 

 

[Cattledog]

I believe that there are enough clones of HW.  Seriously, how many more cow-killing TH + replicas do we need of that guy.  I still keep thinking of the 150 lb calf that was just posted on here recently and think to myself why does the industry still propagate these genetics.  Then I realize that the show portion of beef industry makes up very little of real life beef production.....and the club calf portion is more of a niche deal that would never be tried in the Sandhills.

With all of that said I still walked down the aisles at the Illinois Beef Expo and looked at all of the steers and even looked at the heifers that should have been steers and thought they looked cool!  I never will understand the desire to breed HW.  I know the calves can be great ones but I would be a nervous wreck at calving time.

 

[Okie Boy]

Natural selection dictates that there many individuals to select from . We are mother nature in this selection. We must try many combinations of genes before we find the nex ONE.

 

[ROMAX]

In my opinion too many of these fancy market heifers are kept back and made into donor cows(they were a market heifer for a reason)

 

[GONEWEST]

The reason they clone these bulls is to make money, it's not that hard to figure out. Not sure exactly who "we" is, but "we" need as many of those TH cow killing bulls to produce semen as the market will bear. I can promise you that if the original bull could keep up with the demand for semen, there never would have been a clone to begin with. If animals that were built like Holstiens and had hair like them won shows, I'm betting Heatwave never would have been cloned. But they don't. Heatwave offspring win shows.

I think we try to compare apples to oranges here quite a bit. You can't compare the club calf industry to a commercial operation in south Texas or Montana or either one to a registered Angus operation. All they have in common is that the animals used in each scenario happen to be cattle. So we bash one while comparing it to the other. What purpose does that serve? And as far as the club calf thing not working in the sandhills, I guess you never heard of rocking J.

There is nothing wrong with having a diverse set of opinions, but when we share them, it should be on the same topic. So many times it's " I like the sky being blue." To which someone else will respond, "OH YEAH, I think the grass should be green."  It's either that or an expression of jealousy over someone else's success. What purpose does all that serve?

 

[knabe]

drag racing versus the pelosi mobile

 

[Throttle]

Then I realize that the show portion of beef industry makes up very little of real life beef production.....and the club calf portion is more of a niche deal that would never be tried in the Sandhills.

Isn't Jerry Adamson in the heart of Sandhill country? There are several others as well, both NE and SD, that's just one that comes to mind who has been breeding clubbies since before it was cool

 

[Cattledog]

Then I realize that the show portion of beef industry makes up very little of real life beef production.....and the club calf portion is more of a niche deal that would never be tried in the Sandhills.

Isn't Jerry Adamson in the heart of Sandhill country? There are several others as well, both NE and SD, that's just one that comes to mind who has been breeding clubbies since before it was cool

OK, you have some exceptions but commercial guys don't want to mess with structural nightmares because they really don't have the time to spend on individual cattle that require that kind of maintenance.  Vision Angus sells a ton of bulls for that sector and those guys want rugged looking bulls that won't throw a ton of birth weight.  Sons of an angus bull by the name of Focus were used heavily in that region and he was a hollow gutted critter and not very easy on the eyes.

 

[Throttle]

Then I realize that the show portion of beef industry makes up very little of real life beef production.....and the club calf portion is more of a niche deal that would never be tried in the Sandhills.

Isn't Jerry Adamson in the heart of Sandhill country? There are several others as well, both NE and SD, that's just one that comes to mind who has been breeding clubbies since before it was cool

OK, you have some exceptions but commercial guys don't want to mess with structural nightmares because they really don't have the time to spend on individual cattle that require that kind of maintenance.  Vision Angus sells a ton of bulls for that sector and those guys want rugged looking bulls that won't throw a ton of birth weight.  Sons of an angus bull by the name of Focus were used heavily in that region and he was a hollow gutted critter and not very easy on the eyes.

I understand that if you take say, Cherry County for example, which holds the majority of the true Sandhill country, that the percentage of the cow herd that is bred for clubbies is pretty minute. I can't imagine multiplying the headaches of my 40-50 head clubby herd over something like 1000 cows. I don't think anyone is that big a glutton for punishment

 

[Cattledog]

Isn't Jerry Adamson in the heart of Sandhill country? There are several others as well, both NE and SD, that's just one that comes to mind who has been breeding clubbies since before it was cool

Now that I actually think about it I once bought steer from Rockin J.  Man, I hated that steer! He did really well for me but I took a bunch of licks along the way!  Thanks for the trip down memory lane!  ;D

 

[jallen]

The reason they clone these bulls is to make money, it's not that hard to figure out. Not sure exactly who "we" is, but "we" need as many of those TH cow killing bulls to produce semen as the market will bear. I can promise you that if the original bull could keep up with the demand for semen, there never would have been a clone to begin with. If animals that were built like Holstiens and had hair like them won shows, I'm betting Heatwave never would have been cloned. But they don't. Heatwave offspring win shows.

I think we try to compare apples to oranges here quite a bit. You can't compare the club calf industry to a commercial operation in south Texas or Montana or either one to a registered Angus operation. All they have in common is that the animals used in each scenario happen to be cattle. So we bash one while comparing it to the other. What purpose does that serve? And as far as the club calf thing not working in the sandhills, I guess you never heard of rocking J.

There is nothing wrong with having a diverse set of opinions, but when we share them, it should be on the same topic. So many times it's " I like the sky being blue." To which someone else will respond, "OH YEAH, I think the grass should be green."  It's either that or an expression of jealousy over someone else's success. What purpose does all that serve?

So your saying that we should raise terrible cows and have more dead cows and calfs than live just to maybe get one good one. Let alone if he cant keep up so your telling me that there using a clone and posting it as HW.  well what if the clones sucks? Just because HW throughs good STEERS doesnt meen that they will have anything better than market.

 

[chambero]

For those of you griping about Heat Wave, how many of you have actually raised calves out of him?  Based on my expience with him, which is only about 15 valves, and talking with a whole lot of others that use him, he is marginally worse than most "steer bulls".  You certainly dont have more dead ones than live ones.  That is a gross exageration.  I dont think hes as bad than the old time Charolais and Simis that were so great for commercial cattle purposes.

 

[Cattledog]

For those of you griping about Heat Wave, how many of you have actually raised calves out of him?  Based on my expience with him, which is only about 15 valves, and talking with a whole lot of others that use him, he is marginally worse than most "steer bulls".  You certainly dont have more dead ones than live ones.  That is a gross exageration.  I dont think hes as bad than the old time Charolais and Simis that were so great for commercial cattle purposes.

I have raised 0 calves out of Heat Wave.  I'm a purebred angus guy and don't crossbreed.  I may if I end up with some of the new Angus defects.  You do have a point about being marginally worse.  Maybe the reason why you hear so much negative about heatwave is because he is used so heavily. 

I hate it when when my calves get over 90 and for the most part don't have any calving issues.  To be fair, I did have a 130 pound bullcalf  out of B C Marathon this year.  The bullcalf lived for about 5 minutes then did the death kick thing and croaked. 

 

[jallen]

For those of you griping about Heat Wave, how many of you have actually raised calves out of him?  Based on my expience with him, which is only about 15 valves, and talking with a whole lot of others that use him, he is marginally worse than most "steer bulls".  You certainly dont have more dead ones than live ones.  That is a gross exageration.  I dont think hes as bad than the old time Charolais and Simis that were so great for commercial cattle purposes.

I do have raised severl Heatwave calfs and when talking about losing cows and calfs he is worst the others i have not yet had one daughter out of him have a calf and live. Or she lives and the calf died or both survive and the mom has no milk. He does through nice steers all i am saying is that you dont use him to have  hefiers cause his hefiers have problems and dont make the best cows. But why clone him yes there might be a short on semen but what does the clone do it ainth the exact same.