Cloning bulls

[Tallcool1]

I am not in the semen distribution business nor have I ever had a cow or bull cloned.  My opinions are being based purely on common sense.

There is really only one reason that a bull is cloned.  They are cloned to meet semen demand.  Monopoly, Heatwave, Man Among Boys, etc., could simply not meet the high demand for their semen.  The decision to stamp out a genetic match to the original version had nothing to do with progression or regression.  It had to do with the here and now fact that there were more customers wanting semen than the bulls could produce.  It was based upon the fact that these bulls demonstrated the ability to produce desirable cattle when mated with the cows that are currently in production.  20 years ago, these bulls would not have worked nearly as good as they do today.  The cows in production would not have clicked as well as the cows today click with these bulls.

To clone a bull that was popular and in high demand 25 years ago would be the absolute definition of regression...in my opinion.  To expect that bull to click with the genetic makeup of the cows that are in production today would be a mistake.  I don't see it happening.  Anyone that believes it would work can give it a try by simply buying and using some Black Powerplay, Sugar Ray, or Ildeno semen that is fairly easy to get. 

I realize that I am giving examples of club calf bulls and this thread has revolved around purebred cattle for the most part.  I am using club calf bulls because they are what I know, and they also demonstrate a more obvious and extreme example.

I am not saying that any other opinions here are wrong.  This is simply the way that I see it.

 

[knabe]

i saw what ildeno could do with soggy amerifax cows.


he made nice thick pretty calves that could be 1300-1600 lbs.


of course the heavier calves wouldn't make it today.


but then, some simmental calves seem to be that size today, and with a lot less hair.

 

[beebe]

If you were going to clone bulls from the past, who would you cone?

 

[knabe]

All the original import Fullbloods Maines with semen inventories below 50 units.

 

[beebe]

Even Bysantine?

 

[knabe]

Even Bysantine?

Especially Byzantin. Do you have any?

 

[beebe]

No I don't.

 

[beebe]

All I heard about him back the was that he was a cow killer.  What was it that you found useful?

 

[librarian]

I like Emulous T N 70
Might as well do Big 70, Emulous Pride 70, as well...or as far back as the ampules go. Capture a linage and then attempt something like group selection.
From: A History of the Emulous Line of Cattle
http://www.touchstoneangus.com/emulous.html
Due to the profound impact of the Emulous line of Angus cattle it is important to document the history and highlights. Should history repeat itself like it often does, Emulous bred cattle will surface yet again to notably contribute to the beef business. It only remains to be seen when and by whom.
From what I've tried to learn, this might be a good place to restart something useful.
pre-Ankony.....
Or, if you are more of a purist, go to page 54 for Jols Eric of Craigie, or the Wye stuff- maybe Forceful of Wye.
http://issuu.com/cattle-in-motion/docs/130118angus/57

 

[DLD]

If that picture's any indication, TN 70 was pretty straight off both ends...

 

[librarian]

I don't have any actual training, so I never really know what I am looking at, structurally.I use a sort of shoot from the hip method where if something jumps out at me I start studying the animal.
I like TN 70 because he is the only Emulous bull I've seen a picture of that has the sort of proportions that appeal to me. Those proportions suggest, purely in my imagination, an active, free moving animal that will make daughters that have longevity and economy. The others are of a type that seems to go with breeding for weight gain. Weight gain surely makes money, but a no fuss live calf every time and a watchful mother makes money too.
But that is a lot to read into a photo.
I see now that Big 70 and Little 70 are full brothers, born a year apart. I thought they were half brothers. Why are the epd's so different on full brothers?
Anyway, apart from my superstitious aversion to cloning, since it can and will be done, I am nominating Emulous because I see them way back in so many pedigrees of animals we might consider to have taken us in "the wrong direction". Maybe taking those way back genetics and blending them with something of true Angus character would produce an Angus type without the unfortunate collateral consequences of adding this or that to get height, milk, etc.
Whatever Emulous might include that boosts growth seems to be benign, and I maintain nothing is pure anyway.
This was tried...a Craigie cross...and eventually wound up in Shoshone Bob......

Stoneybroke Emulous 945Reg: AAA #6372478    Bull
Birth Date: 03/30/1969 Tattoo: 945
Parentage: Blood type
Breeder:
110500 - Carlton W Corbin, Fittstown OK
Owner(s):
412663 - Merrill Nichols & Sons, Bridgewater IA
543148 - Stoneybroke Inc, Fittstown OK
Emulous Bob of K Pride AAA 3336024
Emulous Pride 1000 AAA 4410130
Gaines Lady 2 AAA 1165550
Emulous Para AAA 5314297
Paragon 8 AAA 2640912
Pride 383 AAA 4069876
Pride Pocahontas Riverside AAA 1264883
George of Swiftbrook AAA 2653264
Blogarde of Craigie AAA 3156768
Blossom Belle 2 of PV AAA 1593933
Heather 3119 AAA 4069899
Quality Revolution 5 AAA 1791298
Sunshine Heather AAA 2437963
Heather of Ada AAA 2063951

Anyway, way to long of a post.
I was quizzing a regional Angus outlaw about "Big M" and was told Biffles was a kind of flash in the pan promoter....after reading this article I wonder about that...he seemed pretty grounded in environment and the cows pictured from his herd seem to look exactly like what these outlaws love, with a little more size and flesh, which is probably good. Big M, Biffles Emulous, is buried in Speckle Park cattle.
http://www.angusjournal.com/articlepdf/1279_makingangus_small.pdf
As usual, others have contemplated these animals long before I tripped upon them
http://5barx.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=3393
But the real thing is that every time, and really every time, I walk out in these outlaw Angus herds and I see a cow that looks extra nice, Emulation 31 is right up close on the bottom side. I do not think that is coming from Elation. Not that I would know

Sorry to go on, but I keep studying this and I might as well finish the thought.
Just clone Bob of K Pride and his sons. Even if it is mostly hype, there has to be something there.

Emulous Bob of K Pride is the breed's first 100% Certified Meat Sire (CMS) and the world record-gaining bull in 1962 with an average daily gain of 4.29 pounds on a 140-day test, also earning the highest 205-day weight of 565 pounds in Murray Corbin's 1960 calf crop and the highest 365-day weight of 1,140 pounds at the Holdenville, Oklahoma Bull Test.

Emulous Bob of K Pride is the only 100% CMS sire of any breed to sire a 100% CMS sire who in turn sired a third generation 100% CMS sire. He has a total of nine sons, 17 grandsons and 17 great grandsons qualifying for the prestigious CMS honors.

His many famous sons include Emulous Pride 70 and Emulous TN 70, full brothers who were enormously successful sires of lasting impact. Emulous Pride 70 is best known as the sire of Ankonian Dynamo while Emulous TN 70 is the grandsire of Early Sunset Emoulous 60E.

In the 1960's and 1970's, the Emulous line became extremely dominant and many hardcore Emulous breeders believed that with this bloodline, the more intensely linebred they were, the better they were and the faster they would gain.

Emulous Bob of K Pride lived to be 14 years of age, leaving a huge impact on the breed through countless descendants in Angus herds around the globe.

(Reproduced from Angus Legends)

 

[Lucky_P]

"Why are the epd's so different on full brothers? "
I've wondered the same thing - though it could just be genetic roll of the dice; my two sons are very different phenotypically.

Have used two full-sib/flushmate Simmental bulls here:
Triple C Bettis S72J - ASA 2341670
Triple C Singletary S3H - ASA 2341645
CED, BW, WW, YW, MCE epds are vastly different...
CED 18.5 vs 3.9, BW 1.1 vs 4.0, WW 70.7 vs 81, YW 98 vs 125, MCE 15 vs 4.

Bettis calves come tiny - would be safe to use on virtually any heifer of any breed.
Had no issues using Singletary over mature cows...but have heard rumors of big BW & calving issues elsewhere...he left the Genex lineup, and rep told me he was dead...but I've heard he's still walking the pastures breeding cows somewhere.

 

[HerefordGuy]

As predicted.


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0090755


Don't use those last straws.

This is cool. I'm always impressed with people's ability to think outside the box.

 

[JohnWayne72]

Okay. I think the aurochs had lousy dispositions anyway.

If someone has really got to clone a Shorthorn, how about Coronet Max Leader, or Catalyst 20th, or Weston Trademark, or President 26A....something sound with good carcass quality.
The second picture is 26A. Are there any other photos of him? He does not look full grown in this picture.
Max Leader weighed over 2400 lbs, that surprises me.

For the record, I still think cloning will only proliferate a new set of mistakes by re-application of poor judgement to good genetics....but maybe not.

 

[knabe]

From what I’ve heard, the clones obtained from Semem turned out to be from the extender  donor 

The idea is that there are autonomic cells from the bull sling with the semen.

Semen itself will not clone since it’s haploid and there is no doubler that works on mammalian cells like there is in plants.

 

[knabe]

https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2021/01/08/identical_twins_may_not_be_genetically_identical_at_birth_655809.html

Same would prob hold true for clones.

 

[SDWS]

Has anyone got any clones made? Using any of that old semen?

 

[knabe]

Has anyone got any clones made? Using any of that old semen?

none that have been verified to come from the bull itself.  clones are from the cow that was used for the semen preservative, at least as far as i know.


i think people are still trying, but not as much due to the failures.