Deerpark Leader 16th and D.Seamus 4th

[stumpy]

This is quite cynical but I just can't help but notice.... They advertise the father/daughter matings on Leader but not Improver. Makes me wonder who knew what so many years ago.

 

[knabe]

What does an outcross do?

facilitates hybrid vigor

why do you want to keep that in breeding stock?

 

[Doc]

This is quite cynical but I just can't help but notice.... They advertise the father/daughter matings on Leader but not Improver. Makes me wonder who knew what so many years ago.

You know Stumpy , you bring up a good point. I had always been told that linebreeding the Dividend (or Leader) lines worked , but doing the same with Improver lines didn't. Looks like there was something to that.
JIT, that's the only picture I've ever seen of Dividend when he was younger(looks like younger than a yearling) so that may have something do with how he looks. He's probably still trying to get over the trip and quarantine. 

 

[justintime]

That is an excellent point Stumpy. I don't think there could have been any Irish cattle with more than one cross of Improver in them when these cattle started to be imported from Ireland. I can't remember how old Improver was when he came over but I would guess he was 3 or 4 years old. The Irish breeders always told us that the Leader line was the best line from over there, but that could be because this line had been developed over many years in the Deerpark herd. The Improver line was relatively new, as the sire of Improver was a bull named Clare Man, who was a red bull that the Quane's purchased at the local auction market. It is my guess that Clare Man had some Galloway in his genetic make-up as the TH defect is identical to the TH defect that the Galloway breed had in the 50s. The real difference is that the Galloway breed eliminated the defect from their breed, and today the Shorthorn breed in some ways propogates it!

 

[RyanChandler]

What does an outcross do?

facilitates hybrid vigor

why do you want to keep that in breeding stock?

You don't, you want to preserve it for the commercial cattleman.

 

[OH Breeder]

Is there any semen on Deerpark Leader out there? Of the three only from the pictures, I like him the best. The other two look so poor I am struggling with the numbers they have posted as performance.

 

[justintime]

Is there any semen on Deerpark Leader out there? Of the three only from the pictures, I like him the best. The other two look so poor I am struggling with the numbers they have posted as performance.

I believe there are a few doses of Deerpark Leader out there yet. I doubt if there are many of them, but I remember hearing of someone who had some Deerpark Leader semen that he was hoping to flush with some day.

That picture of Dividend does not come anywhere close to representing him properly. He was 4 years old when I saw him the first time, and he was a massive sire, with tremendous thickness and a large rear quarter. Looking at this picture, I can hardly imagine how he could have changed this much and if it wasn't for the same color, I would question if it was even him.

 

[knabe]

You don't, you want to preserve it for the commercial cattleman.

just wanted to make sure, as an "outcross" dilutes it somewhat, how much, isn't yet known and obviously  not as severe as a crossbred bull. at some point, it will be figured out though and won't matter as a default tool across breeds as breeds will disappear.

 

[beebe]

800 semen straws and 50 embryos...well, embryos I can't assume that, but semen straws I'm sure that we will to be able to broke this record soon, bringing semen to Brazil....need only get the correct price and bulls.
[What kind of bulls are you looking for?/quote]

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

800 semen straws and 50 embryos...well, embryos I can't assume that, but semen straws I'm sure that we will to be able to broke this record soon, bringing semen to Brazil....need only get the correct price and bulls.
[What kind of bulls are you looking for?/quote]

No Irish and no asterisk I'm sure!
A good long, deep ribbed, full meat on quarterback...maybe a roan or white, horned or polled....a bull like some biotype found on Alta Cedar or Saskvalley.

 

[justintime]

800 semen straws and 50 embryos...well, embryos I can't assume that, but semen straws I'm sure that we will to be able to broke this record soon, bringing semen to Brazil....need only get the correct price and bulls.
[What kind of bulls are you looking for?/quote]

No Irish and no asterisk I'm sure!
A good long, deep ribbed, full meat on quarterback...maybe a roan or white, horned or polled....a bull like some biotype found on Alta Cedar or Saskvalley.

It is going to find a bull that fits your criteria, at least here in Canada, unless you can accept some Irish in the background of their pedigree.  For example, our Saskvalley Pioneer 126P bull goes back to Huberdale Mastercharge 42T ( by Deerpark Improver 52nd) eight times and to Highfield Irish Mist also eight times in his extended pedigree. I just glanced at the pedigree of Saskvalley Yesterday that Semex is marketing, and there are multiples of Highfield Irish Mist, Deerpark Improver 52nd and old Deerpark Improver throughout his pedigree.  I just checked a couple well known Alta Cedar sires and was able to find Highfield Irish Mist, Deerpark Dividend, Illawara breeding from Australia ( 5/8 Shorthorn at best) and some older Canadian Dual purpose breeding in their backgrounds.  I have only found a couple animals in the past few years that I could not trace to some Irish or Milking Shorthorn blood . There are some very impressive and great breeding Shorthorns today, and IMO, we should accept them for their good traits they offer.

 

[beebe]

That sounds like old school native shorthorns.  I think you can find what you are looking for.  I started looking for the same kind of cattle, I decided that native was the direction I wanted to go.  There are some good native bulls out there.

 

[RyanChandler]

^^^ Lol did you not just read the man's comment above?

 

[beebe]

Yes I did.  The first thing he said was no Irish and no asterisks.  What percentage does that eliminate?  Then he said deep ribbed and full of meat in the back quarters, that takes care of the dual purpose cattle.  He also mentioned length.  He did not specify a birth weight but he sounds like a practical cattleman so he probably is wanting to keep them moderate.  So after eliminating all that what is left?  I assume there are some non native bulls that will fit but given that asterisk cattle can have the asterisk go away, by process of elimination the choice gets rather narrow doesn't it?

 

[RyanChandler]

So narrow that JIT has only "found a couple animals in the past few years that could not traced to some Irish or Milking Shorthorn blood."

That includes the 'native' cattle.



I agree w/ JIT in the fact that there are some very impressive and great breeding Shorthorns today and that we should accept them for their good traits they offer----  where we differ is that I don't think the positive traits of some of these lines are beneficial ENOUGH to the breed to outweigh the detrimental traits they also bring to the table. 

 

[justintime]

So narrow that JIT has only "found a couple animals in the past few years that could not traced to some Irish or Milking Shorthorn blood."

That includes the 'native' cattle.



I agree w/ JIT in the fact that there are some very impressive and great breeding Shorthorns today and that we should accept them for their good traits they offer----  where we differ is that I don't think the positive traits of some of these lines are beneficial ENOUGH to the breed to outweigh the detrimental traits they also bring to the table.

In general I agree with what xbar is saying here. I'm just saying that sometimes some individuals appear from any bloodline that can do some good and for that reason I don't think we should eliminate every animal simply because of something in its genetic makeup. Good cattle should be accepted as good cattle whenever they are found from any bloodline. I have had to learn this myself about some lines I am not fond of.

 

[knabe]

What bull's have ENOUGH?

 

[sue]

How about a photo of Deerpark Tulip 5th?  She was used heavily

 

[beebe]

XBAR I agree that that cattle bring positives and negatives to the mating decision.  Which bulls bring ENOUGH depends on what the goal is.  In my case I am trying to produce a 1200 lb. cow that can live on crop residue and limited hay grazing most of the year in north central South Dakota and only sees corn when grazing corn stalks. Then produce a calf that will marble well enough at 20 months eating nothing but grass to please the grassfed market.  The natives that I am working with seem to be able to do that.

JIT I won't argue against using good cattle.  I am not putting down anyones choices as to what cattle they use.  It seems like our friend from Brazil has a clear idea as to what he wants and I think he might be able to find it by looking at some native cattle.  I hope you all have fun today.

 

[RyanChandler]

And I think anyone who limits their selection to 'native' shorthorns is doing a terrible disservice to themselves.  This is just my opinion.  Use what you like.  I could personally care less what genetics someone uses--- so long as they don't try to market it as something its not....and that is my biggest pet peeve in the cattle business: folks trying to promote a bull as the jack of all trades. 


'Enough' is subjective I agree. But there's some parameters to go by-  To me, no bull in the world could possibly have enough positive attributes to compensate for having a 120lb bw.  No genetics could be easy fleshing enough or maternal enough to compensate for having 400lb ww's or an 1" of backfat and an 8" eye. 

In general I agree with what xbar is saying here. I'm just saying that sometimes some individuals appear from any bloodline that can do some good

Do we anticipate these animals/outliers will replicate themselves or do we anticipate that they will breed true to their bloodline/genetics?