Durham Red Bulls

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Anybody use Durham Red bulls?  Get lots of yellow red calves on angus cross cows?

 

[RyanChandler]

If you use one, use one that has been bred Durham red for multiple generations, not just some f1.  Seeing how I don't know where any stabilize Durham reds are, I'd encourage you to use a PUREBRED bull.

 

[r.n.reed]

No surprise here.The Bates strain was described as being golden red and the polled branch was derived from this strain.I think its safe to say that most Durham reds are coming from red and polled programs.I had an old timer tell me 40 years ago that if you bred polled shorthorns red on red too long they would start to yellow.

 

[aandtcattle]

If you use one, use one that has been bred Durham red for multiple generations, not just some f1.   Seeing how I don't know where any stabilize Durham reds are, I'd encourage you to use a PUREBRED bull.

What the heck does it matter if you use a F1 or the resulting progeny of breeding F1 parents to each other??????????????  In my opinion, there are tons of great crossbred bulls out there, and not just clubbies.  SimAngus, Durham Reds, Durham Blacks, LimFlex etc.  These cattle have a lot to offer the commercial man in terms of increased heterosis, especially when used on a primarily pure angus cowherd.  They also offer a great combo of traits for IMF AND REA that is hard to get in some purebred bulls.  I have heard the arguement of inconsistency in type and kind of calves sired by crossbred or hybrid bulls, but I'm just not buying it.  I have seen far too many rippin good sets of calves sired by composite bulls to throw them under the bus.  With America's cowherd becoming more and more purebred all the time, I really beleive that composite bulls will rise in popularity in the future..... as well as the popularity of "Non-Angus" bulls.

 

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Calves are lookin' rippin, just not a fan of that yellow tinge.

 

[sue]

Anybody use Durham Red bulls?  Get lots of yellow red calves on angus cross cows?

Yes, this year some of the calves did appear lighter in color for the first day. At the moment the only light colored calf is out of a roan durham red female? It's early so I can tell you more later on .  Most of the calves would be 5/8 sh x 3/8 ra  and some are 3/4 SH.

Thanks for posting about Durham Reds, I love em too! 

 

[Doc]

We bought one of the Durham Red bred heifers in WHR sale recently. Looking forward to getting her home and seeing her. She had a heifer calf by What's Up a few days after the sale.

 

[sue]

No surprise here.The Bates strain was described as being golden red and the polled branch was derived from this strain.I think its safe to say that most Durham reds are coming from red and polled programs.I had an old timer tell me 40 years ago that if you bred polled shorthorns red on red too long they would start to yellow.

Gary,the Durham red ( 3/4 sh x1/4 ra) bull I used is out of a roan durham red female ( 1/2 sh x 1/2 ra). He has a heavy hair coat like a shorthorn but dark red with lighter colored under coat. I hope to see a couple of dark roan calves ?  My dad has also said - rotate a dark roan or white bull into your program  to darken your reds? 

 

[RyanChandler]

If you use one, use one that has been bred Durham red for multiple generations, not just some f1.   Seeing how I don't know where any stabilize Durham reds are, I'd encourage you to use a PUREBRED bull.

What the heck does it matter if you use a F1 or the resulting progeny of breeding F1 parents to each other??????????????  In my opinion, there are tons of great crossbred bulls out there, and not just clubbies.  SimAngus, Durham Reds, Durham Blacks, LimFlex etc.  These cattle have a lot to offer the commercial man in terms of increased heterosis, especially when used on a primarily pure angus cowherd.  They also offer a great combo of traits for IMF AND REA that is hard to get in some purebred bulls.  I have heard the arguement of inconsistency in type and kind of calves sired by crossbred or hybrid bulls, but I'm just not buying it.  I have seen far too many rippin good sets of calves sired by composite bulls to throw them under the bus.  With America's cowherd becoming more and more purebred all the time, I really beleive that composite bulls will rise in popularity in the future..... as well as the popularity of "Non-Angus" bulls.

Those crossbreeds express the heterosis themselves. Obviously they have better performance; they're hybrids.  The problem is, in Okotoks words, "you have to question how much hybrid vigor is left for the end user."   Perhaps in a terminal operation the point is void, but when considering retaining heifers, youd be ignorant to use a crossbred bull on crossbred cows. Breeding a black (angus) composite back to angus cows results in breed regression. This is the opposite of hybrid vigor.  There is no substitute for the F1 cow. An F1 cannot be created using a crossbreed bull.  

 

[r.n.reed]

I am learning to like gold.

 

[dimebag]

That's a good looking bull , no matter what he is !

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

I know for a fact of one "crossbred" bull breeding angus cows that is doing a damn good job. 700 lb ww's are just fine in my book. I see no reason using a highly proven English bull on other English cows. Type to type gets you further. All breeds were once crossbred.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I know for a fact of one "crossbred" bull breeding angus cows that is doing a damn good job. 700 lb ww's are just fine in my book. I see no reason using a highly proven English bull on other English cows. Type to type gets you further. All breeds were once crossbred. /// and Shorthorns crossed with all of them-just look at the Rn Reed bull-hes thicker than a red angus-and thicker butted than almost any shorthorn you will see-and not out of clubby breeding O0

 

[RyanChandler]

I know for a fact of one "crossbred" bull breeding angus cows that is doing a damn good job. 700 lb ww's are just fine in my book. I see no reason using a highly proven English bull on other English cows. Type to type gets you further. All breeds were once crossbred.

Further what? The more unlike the two animals in a mating are, the more hybrid vigor is expressed.   There should be very little expression on type to type.   You're right all breeds were once crossbreds.  Fortunately, after breeding like percentage animals to one another for generations,  the genetics and characteristics become 'fixed' and you establish some consistency in traits.   700lb ww are exceptional.. but look at the opportunity cost.   If a crossbred bull with breed average #s can produce numbers like that, imagine what a growth trait leader of a 'complete' outcross --char- limo- would do.   Obviously when you use good genetics, the offspring -crossbred or not- will be better than average.  The real difference will be seen when you align good genetics with the heterosis phenomenon.  

 

[garybob]

That's a good looking bull , no matter what he is !

yep! From the ground-up, he is different. His coronet band doesn't touch the ground, and his dew claws are not pointed at the dirt.  <cowboy>

GB

 

[aandtcattle]

If you use one, use one that has been bred Durham red for multiple generations, not just some f1.   Seeing how I don't know where any stabilize Durham reds are, I'd encourage you to use a PUREBRED bull.

What the heck does it matter if you use a F1 or the resulting progeny of breeding F1 parents to each other??????????????  In my opinion, there are tons of great crossbred bulls out there, and not just clubbies.  SimAngus, Durham Reds, Durham Blacks, LimFlex etc.  These cattle have a lot to offer the commercial man in terms of increased heterosis, especially when used on a primarily pure angus cowherd.  They also offer a great combo of traits for IMF AND REA that is hard to get in some purebred bulls.  I have heard the arguement of inconsistency in type and kind of calves sired by crossbred or hybrid bulls, but I'm just not buying it.  I have seen far too many rippin good sets of calves sired by composite bulls to throw them under the bus.  With America's cowherd becoming more and more purebred all the time, I really beleive that composite bulls will rise in popularity in the future..... as well as the popularity of "Non-Angus" bulls.

Those crossbreeds express the heterosis themselves. Obviously they have better performance; they're hybrids.  The problem is, in Okotoks words, "you have to question how much hybrid vigor is left for the end user."   Perhaps in a terminal operation the point is void, but when considering retaining heifers, youd be ignorant to use a crossbred bull on crossbred cows. Breeding a black (angus) composite back to angus cows results in breed regression. This is the opposite of hybrid vigor.  There is no substitute for the F1 cow. An F1 cannot be created using a crossbreed bull.  

You are'nt using your head when making statements like you made above.  Crossbreeding is NOT quantum physics!  In theory, what would be wrong with using a SimAngus bull on F1 shorthorn x hereford cows?  One could enter a variety of different breeds into this equation and it STILL would not be wrong!  By making the given mating, you are not increasing the breed percentage of either parent in the resulting calves and the parents are TOTALLY non-related because they are not even the same breed composition!  This is a perfect example of where a CROSSBRED BULL fits a breeding plan, although there are many others.  You and your idea of evey crossbred bull under the sun is a bastard is just WRONG!  Furthermore, the resulting calves of this above-mentioned mating would be 3/4 british, 1/4 continental, which in my opinion is near ideal for a wide array of commercial outfits.  The steers should hit the feedlot and grid targets, the heifers should make dandy cows that you can breed back any way you chose because they are no more than 1/4 of any breed in the mix.  I would easily breed them back Simmy, Herf, Angus or Shorthorn without a worry in the world.  Its your own personal preference. <cowboy>

 

[JTM]

I'm currently running a 3/4 Shorthorn x 1/4 Red Angus bull on a group of Cows that are simmy x angus, pb angus, and a few Shorthorn x Angus F1's. First calving season was last year for the bull and the year before that was a calf crop sired by purebred angus sires by AI. Although I don't have comparative numbers it was easy to recognize that my crossbred bull performed better than the AI purebred Angus bulls. I have a real good suspicion that the heifers kept back from the cross bred bull will be better than the ones kept back from the PB Angus bulls.

 

[r.n.reed]

I started in the Shorthorn breed 40 yrs ago as a total outsider to the cattle industry  with no built in prejudices to taint my decision.After viewing three different phenomenal crossbred herds,I noticed there was a common denominator and chose that breed. If I had a atraightbred english non shorthorn commercial cow herd and had been buying bulls from the same seedstock  supplier for the last 2 to 3 rounds or longer I would buy a linebred Shorthorn bull if one could be found that suited me and  sell or build a herd of those crossbred females.Then a Durham red or black if I wanted to produce replacements or an exotic cross for terminal would be my next step.
For the record the bull I posted on the first page was a linebred purebred polled Shorthorn.I just wanted to make the point that the golden color is inherent in the breed.2 of the founding polled Shorthorn bulls were named Golden Hero and his sire Golden Gauntlet With all the issues in the breed should we be steering a bull like that because he is the wrong shade of red?
By the way I just weaned his full brother a nice lavender red that blows the older bull away at this stage of the game.

 

[RyanChandler]

Why did you make the point to include the word "linebred," Gary?

It seems to me using a crossbred bull provides you opposite the traits provided by linebreeding


In the scenario A&T created (sim x angus X hereford x shorthorn) you will have considerable variation in the offspring. When using a crossbred female - you will experience a blending of the genetics and maternal heterosis.  This phenomenon isnt thought of in terms of 'paternal heterosis.'  The crossbred sire transmits characteristics from one of his make up breeds or the other as opposed to a 'blending' of the characteristics transmitted by a crossbred cow. 

JTM, I feel like your comparison is anecdotal.  You have to compare apple to apples.  Complete's pedigree suggest he's a 'carcass bull.'  A true comparison would be to the results of a purebred 'carcass bull' when bred to those same cows. 

 

[r.n.reed]

Ryan,linebred to maximize heterosis in the 2 way cross.For the 4 way maternal I would use similar type and breeding on both sides.Terminal couldn't use straight continental for grading issues on the average.