Durham Red Bulls

[Duncraggan]

I am enjoying this topic! <beer>

 

[aandtcattle]

Why did you make the point to include the word "linebred," Gary?

It seems to me using a crossbred bull provides you opposite the traits provided by linebreeding


In the scenario A&T created (sim x angus X hereford x shorthorn) you will have considerable variation in the offspring. When using a crossbred female - you will experience a blending of the genetics and maternal heterosis.  This phenomenon isnt thought of in terms of 'paternal heterosis.'  The crossbred sire transmits characteristics from one of his make up breeds or the other as opposed to a 'blending' of the characteristics transmitted by a crossbred cow. 

JTM, I feel like your comparison is anecdotal.  You have to compare apple to apples.  Complete's pedigree suggest he's a 'carcass bull.'  A true comparison would be to the results of a purebred 'carcass bull' when bred to those same cows.

X_Bar, Incorrect.  In your "perfect world" of crossbreeding using phenotypically different parent stock, yes you will have considerable variation in type and kind of offspring.  The fact you have brought up in other threads about having to use phenotypically opposite parents for maximum expression of heterosis is just a bunch of hooey.  You build-in consistency by mating phenotypically similar, non-related parents!

 

[RyanChandler]

I question the amount of hybrid vigor expressed when mating phenotypically similar animals.

In terms of maximums- mating similars doesn't even come close.  Perhaps that's the balance- maximum consistency when mating similar(in/linebreeding); maximum heterosis when mating opposites.  It is FACT- that the more unrelated a mating is, the more hybrid vigor expression that will occur.

In addition, I have to question the genotype of an animal that is so similar to another of a different breed as to not have inconsistencies in the resulting calf crop. 

 

[aandtcattle]

I question the amount of hybrid vigor expressed when mating phenotypically similar animals.

In terms of maximums- mating similars doesn't even come close.  Perhaps that's the balance- maximum consistency when mating similar(in/linebreeding); maximum heterosis when mating opposites.  It is FACT- that the more unrelated a mating is, the more hybrid vigor expression that will occur.

In addition, I have to question the genotype of an animal that is so similar to another of a different breed as to not have inconsistencies in the resulting calf crop.

Do YOU question the amount of hybrid vigor expressed when mating phenotypically similar animals? Or is that what it said in a textbook you read once upon a time??
You are correct, it is a FACT that the more unrelated a mating is, the more hybrid vigor will be evident, very good.  So, what does phenotype have to do with being related?  That's right, not a damn thing.  I will stick to breeding similar type, non-related animals in a crossbreeding system, paying attention to economically relevant traits.  You go ahead and toy with your fire and ice matings.

 

[JTM]

I question the amount of hybrid vigor expressed when mating phenotypically similar animals.

In terms of maximums- mating similars doesn't even come close.  Perhaps that's the balance- maximum consistency when mating similar(in/linebreeding); maximum heterosis when mating opposites.  It is FACT- that the more unrelated a mating is, the more hybrid vigor expression that will occur.

In addition, I have to question the genotype of an animal that is so similar to another of a different breed as to not have inconsistencies in the resulting calf crop.

Do YOU question the amount of hybrid vigor expressed when mating phenotypically similar animals? Or is that what it said in a textbook you read once upon a time??
You are correct, it is a FACT that the more unrelated a mating is, the more hybrid vigor will be evident, very good.  So, what does phenotype have to do with being related?  That's right, not a damn thing.  I will stick to breeding similar type, non-related animals in a crossbreeding system, paying attention to economically relevant traits.  You go ahead and toy with your fire and ice matings.

I guess that best explains why my crossbred bull is working well. He is completely unrelated to the cows that he is breeding. He is made up of two breeds that are not in the genetic makeup of the cows he is breeding. I know its working for me. I'm sure there could be a better scenario but it's what I have to work with at the moment. I agree that similar type or phenotype has nothing to do with hybrid vigor. I.E., if you have an Angus herd and breed them for a certain type for 15 years and you have a Shorthorn herd and breed them for the same type for 15 years it does not make related herds... It just makes a cross that will give you the exact type you want along with very good hybrid vigor.

 

[RyanChandler]

Are you suggesting there's no genotype/phenotype relationship? 

*breed character

 

[sue]

Most of the calves are on the ground:  and many are at least 2nd generation  Durham Red matings ( Reg sh x reg RA ) .
The calves are predominantly darker with age.  The shorthorn base in the larger population is dark roan . The Red Angus influence is , Red Hill Lancer, BJR Monu 4x and Bieber Make MImi with a splash of PCC HObo. This group of calves will vary from 5/8 to 3/4 shorthorn.  Sunday was the 1st day I saw calves without rain soaked coats in the entire month of April.

 

[RyanChandler]

Good for you, Sue. When you get that half angus half shorthorn cross stabilized at 5 crosses let me know. I'd be interested in some momma cows.

 

[Till-Hill]

I'll chime in to get hammered on. No I have not done this as long as some of you but I intend on doing it for a long time. When I mate mine or custom cows/heifer that are clubby bred or maybe only know one generation what they are I love using SimAngus or I am going to use some Shorthorn Angus bulls also. I love the calves and I think I'm right on target with what my goals are.

Some of my SimAngus heifers I will breed up to 3/4 then PB status, some down to 1/4 bloods because there are so many great 3/4 bloods to use now to get back to half bloods. IMO the calves from these matings when using similar types as A&T said I feel are more of a cookie cutter set than what I see in commercial herds using the same breed for 25 years in their calf crop.

I will say in an AI situation of planned matings with a herd bull if you breed every cows for certain traits sooner or later they will show them selves and balance will be there no matter if it's an F1 x F1 or PB x PB IMO.

I have talked with alot of commercial guys and SimAngus bulls are hot and they like the calves. If they use one forever they will never get more than 50% Sim in their commercial Angus herds. They don't want to use a PB and make F1 heifers and use an F1 on them. They would rather just make it easy and use 50-50 or even some 3/4, 5/8, 3/8, 1/4 blood bulls and they think the hybred vigor kick is there. And so do I.

IMO mating traits and not breeds will get me where I want to be in the end. I do try to balance out at half blood cows tho.

 

[RyanChandler]

Of course many commercial guys like the performance of sim angus bulls. The Simmental blood in those bulls provides more performance than the traditional angus counterparts they've been using in the past. Sadly, their short sightedness prevents them from seeing the opportunity cost of just using a PB or even better FB Simm bull. 

 

[Till-Hill]

So what would they do with them F1 heifers then?

 

[RyanChandler]

Which f1 heifers?

 

[Till-Hill]

Commercial herd (angus) using a PB or FB Sim bull, what would they do with the resulting heifers as a mating then?

 

[jaimiediamond]

Commercial herd (angus) using a PB or FB Sim bull, what would they do with the resulting heifers as a mating then?

I have had the opportunity to be employed by a commercial operation. The owner of this operation only breeds his heifers (simXAngus, simxShorthorn, AngusxShorthorn, SimxShorthorn) to purebred bulls (Shorthorn and Black Angus).  He also runs a group of heifers he sells and they are bred to Black or Red Angus bulls depending on their coat base.

I have had a number of informative and enlightening conversations with my boss regarding this topic and he doesn't believe there is a place for composite bulls in his program as there would be too much variation in the offspring.  Below is what X-Bar stated which I feel holds a lot of merit

you will have considerable variation in the offspring. When using a crossbred female - you will experience a blending of the genetics and maternal heterosis.  This phenomenon isnt thought of in terms of 'paternal heterosis.'  The crossbred sire transmits characteristics from one of his make up breeds or the other as opposed to a 'blending' of the characteristics transmitted by a crossbred cow. 

 

[RyanChandler]

Commercial herd (angus) using a PB or FB Sim bull, what would they do with the resulting heifers as a mating then?

You breed them to a terminal sire of a 3rd breed (Id use Charolais) to create the most desirable feeder calf- the 3 way cross. You ought to get plenty of milk out of the true simangus f1 which will help the char sired calf maximize his potential.

Thanks for chiming in Jamie. It's refreshing to hear an opinion from someone not trying to sell crossbred bulls.

 

[Till-Hill]

XBAR I'll never have the landbase to make a huge impact selling x-bred bulls but I do however have a huge demand.

My problem with the commercial cattlemen is they run their own replacements and don't want to run a complicated x-breeding system so why force them to bring in another breed if we can provide them an easy system (not perfect no) but something that will work for them to make them more profitable. I couldn't sell a PB Angus/Simmental bull to save my butt. Everybody does that.

In a perfect world yes the 3rd breed terminal x is great. But are them heifers throw aways? I got SM x HP heifers I bred angus and make awesome cows. Been using 3/4 SM bulls to get them back 1/2 bloods. I just don't see the x-bred male or a 3 breed heifer being a throw away. In my part of the country we got guys that run couple angus bulls, maybe a hereford and a couple Simmys and keep the best "looking heifers" and who the heck knows what they get bred to so my point is using a SimAngus bull would help them kind of people a great deal.


Your really going to hate my clean-up sire then. He is a Trifecta 1/4 SM 3/4 AN x a 3/4 Combination cow 3/4 SM 1/4 AN making him a half blood. Going to use him on some true F1 first calvers next year. He rented out to a commercial angus herd this year because he believes he will get just a hint of hybred vigor.

Great discussion and hope I haven't offened anyone and I wish everyone the best. I'm just trying to make the best cattle I can for me and my customers. I'm sure that's what everyone wants.

 

[RyanChandler]

In the system above, I would just encourage a 2 breed rotation. Breed those sim ang f1s back angus and then their resulting retained heifers back sim and so on.

If cross breeding is too much hassle, there are plenty of STABALIZED composite breeds - beefmaster, gert, brangus, and so on- that were developed just for this. 

 

[Till-Hill]

I really don't think them composite bulls will work in my NE Iowa enviroment. On breeding back to a parent breed my 3/4 blood cows I don't "love" half bloods and 3 way cows are alot better IMO.

 

[JTM]

Commercial herd (angus) using a PB or FB Sim bull, what would they do with the resulting heifers as a mating then?

You breed them to a terminal sire of a 3rd breed (Id use Charolais) to create the most desirable feeder calf- the 3 way cross. You ought to get plenty of milk out of the true simangus f1 which will help the char sired calf maximize his potential.

Thanks for chiming in Jamie. It's refreshing to hear an opinion from someone not trying to sell crossbred bulls.

XBAR, for the record I'm looking to sell both purebred and crossbred bulls. I don't know if it's possible to convince you of the usefullness of crossbred bulls but I think Till -Hill made a really good point. Who wants to keep that three way cross from a Charolais bull for a replacement heifer? Wouldn't you have to buy several bulls and manage the herd in order to get some replacements, hopefully heifers, and then some for terminal calves, hopefully bull calves? All I'm asking is that you look outside of the box a little and consider a different angle to things which may be more of what happens in a lot of herds. I've read all the expert articles in Beef magazine and so forth, I understand heterosis/hybrid vigor, and all I'm saying is that crossbred bulls have a place in the commercial market for herd sires. Good cattle are cattle that make good cattle. When you are talking about commercial animals with similar phenotype and traits, not talking about club calf breeding, then your ability to produce consistent cattle will be just fine in my opinion.

 

[Mill Iron A]

Xbar the one thing I don't get is if someone uses a stabilized composite then isn't that just like using any other pb bull? I would rather people use some sort of crossbred bull compared to using straight black angus bulls. That deal is getting ugly. As for inconsistency sure, might be more than using pb bulls but in some cases that will fit marketing cattle a little easier and more often. I see both sides, done both, right now we two way and switch back and forth with pb parents. A.I. Helps a lot.