Embryo experts please comment on my recent experience...please!

[dknupp]

Here's the scoop...or rather my terrible luck.  I have a cow that has been flushed as a virgin heifer before I bought her as a bred.  Two monopoly calves from that flush, both sold really well and the one steer won a major show this year (a jr. national).  So naturally I left her open after last years calf and flushed her three times to monopoly.  In total I got 17 good embryos from the 3 flushes, not the greatest..but i've done worse.  I had ten embryo's transfered at a very reputable embryo vets place.  10 embryos from three different flushes two of which where fresh transfers.  All grade 1 and 2's all stage 4.  The monopoly semen was from the same collection as the first two successful embryo calves....semen has been checked its great.  So here is what happened....I went 0 for 10 from a vet that averages 60 to 70 percent.  He has no explanation for what went wrong.  I've been messing around with this embryo deal for a couple of years with limited success....and thought I would go the "book" route this time......meaning I had an expert do everything.  I mean everything, the cow was boarded there, we used his recips that he set up and got the worst results I've ever got.  I did put one embryo in a cow here at home, and have not preg checked her yet...would that be something if she is pregnant.  And the donor is confirmed bred back to Walks Alone.  So, heres the deal....I still have 6 more of these monopoly embryo's. 

1.  What do you think could have been the issue.......just bad luck I assume
2.  What would you do with these other 6 embryo's

Remember the two calves from this mating have produced over 20k in sales and one won a jr. national

I do this deal for fun...but only an idiot would try this again...LOL probably me.

 

[aj]

Was the heifer ever fed the showmaxx product that you know of?

 

[dknupp]

Not to my knowledge, and I highly doubt it.  She was never shown and sold through a sale as a bred heifer (when I bought her).  One phone call and I can find out however.  Why you ask? 

 

[aj]

I talked to a feedlot nutrionist about this new product and he thought this deal would be a ticking timebomb problem if used on breeding females for the showring. Just wondering.

 

[justintime]

Here's the scoop...or rather my terrible luck.  I have a cow that has been flushed as a virgin heifer before I bought her as a bred.  Two monopoly calves from that flush, both sold really well and the one steer won a major show this year (a jr. national).  So naturally I left her open after last years calf and flushed her three times to monopoly.  In total I got 17 good embryos from the 3 flushes, not the greatest..but i've done worse.  I had ten embryo's transfered at a very reputable embryo vets place.  10 embryos from three different flushes two of which where fresh transfers.  All grade 1 and 2's all stage 4.  The monopoly semen was from the same collection as the first two successful embryo calves....semen has been checked its great.  So here is what happened....I went 0 for 10 from a vet that averages 60 to 70 percent.  He has no explanation for what went wrong.  I've been messing around with this embryo deal for a couple of years with limited success....and thought I would go the "book" route this time......meaning I had an expert do everything.  I mean everything, the cow was boarded there, we used his recips that he set up and got the worst results I've ever got.  I did put one embryo in a cow here at home, and have not preg checked her yet...would that be something if she is pregnant.  And the donor is confirmed bred back to Walks Alone.  So, heres the deal....I still have 6 more of these monopoly embryo's. 

1.  What do you think could have been the issue.......just bad luck I assume
2.  What would you do with these other 6 embryo's

Remember the two calves from this mating have produced over 20k in sales and one won a jr. national

I do this deal for fun...but only an idiot would try this again...LOL probably me.

There could be a number of possibilities or combinations of possible reasons or bad luck could also be involved. Here are just a few of the possible reasons that come to my mind right now:
1) were the embryos implanted into recips in very hot weather?  I know that they say that this should not be a big problem, but I have had very rotten luck implanting on hot days or even on a cooler day that is following a hot spell. I don't know if there is anything to this, but I seem to have poor pregnancy rates when the temps break 90 F or above. I'm wondering if this is why some of my Scottish embryo buyers seem to have much better luck that I have. One lady purchased 10 embryos and got 10n pregnancies. She then purchased 10 more the next year and she had 9 calves born. The third year she purchased 12 embryos and had 9 calves born from them, and she was wondering why her luck had changed. I sold 17 embryos to another new Scottish breeder this spring and he says he thinks he has 15 pass 60 days pregnant. I would be doing cartwheels if I averaged these numbers of pregnancies. I dont know why this is, but I know it is quite cool there and when  I was there in late June  three years ago, I wore a jacket on every day but one.
2) was the feed of the recips changed after implanting? I have changed my recip management in the past couple years and it seems to have helped me get more ET calves. If I implant early and the recips are being fed dry feed, I will keep them on this ration for a minimum of 60 days after implantation. If they are on grass before implanting them, I put them back on this same grass immediately following implanting the embryos. I used to keep my recips in a dry lot mostly for my convenience and then turn them out on pasture after the embryos were implanted. I seemed to have very mixed results. Since I started maintaining them on the same ration before and after, I have had much better conceptions. I have also had really bad luck for no apparent reason and then had really good luck the next time with no apparent changes in management.

 

[dknupp]

As far as heat is concerned, yes I'm sure some of them where implanted in "hotter" weather as I recall.  But they where not all done at the same time...over about a 3 week period...so I'm going to rule out the weather.  I don't know about the recip feed program.  I will ask about that.  That is some good advice...thanks.

I also forgot to add that some of these same recips have stuck with other embryos from other producers after mine did not at the vets place.  It has to be something with the embryo's....something must be wrong that our science (microscope) is not telling us.

 

[husker1]

I'm wondering if your on to something there...could it be something really strange with these particular embryos? 

I was just gonna ask if the embryologist had luck with any other cows that he was "housing" with different embryos...and you stated that he got pregnancies.  I'd lean toward something strange with the embryos...zero out of 10 is something.

 

[CAB]

Total guess here, but to me it almost sounds like your embryos somehow were handled wrong and were dead B4 implanting to get zero pregnancies out of the deal. That's the only thing that I can think would result in all 10 of them not sticking.JMO

P.S. I'm far from an expert on any subject.

 

[dknupp]

Maybe...u would think a vet/expert who does this for a living would not screw that up, but you never know. 

He has offered to put the remaining embryos in next spring at no charge in his recips....so I guess we will see. 

I want to flush her again next spring to Monopoly, but I am afraid to do so....because of these results.  I guess I'll see how the Walks Alone calf looks and maybe flush to him.

 

[CAB]

It has nothing to do with Monopoly. You had fert. eggs. If the Monopoly sired embryos were really good, I think that I would @ least use him again. B4 I would put the remaining embryos in, I would ck for viability.

 

[CCW]

You got good embryos so it's not the bull's fault they're not sticking. They may have been improperly frozen & thawed or something happened when they were being stored (got to warm).

 

[show12win]

  I would thaw one and see if it is good.cheaper than open recips and time.

 

[dknupp]

Hey guys thanks for the thoughts.  I want to make one thing clear...I'm not bashing Monopoly....I know the semen is good.  However, there are a lot of "unexplained" things here that simpy are "unexplained".  The only way to possibly change the unexplained is to change the variables..thats why I'm hesitant about using the same semen.  This is coming from a guy that has spent well over 50k to have his two girls....trust me even in human medicine with the best doctors money can buy things can be "unexplained". 

ON another note...I love how everybody rushes to defend the semen. LOL.  Its the world we live in!  Lots of stuff could be the issue here...and thanks for the advice everyone.

One thing is for certain....if these other 6 don't stick....it has something to do with the semen! LOL...fertilized or not!  LOL  "unexplained"

 

[3dfarms]

The embryos sticking only can be something with either the recips or the eggs, whether you go 0 for 10 or 0 for 16 (sure hope not). 

Not taking up for the semen, but the semen has done its role.

As mentioned earlier there are a number of factors that could have played a role including weather, feeding and embryo handling. 

What makes you step back and scratch your head a little harder is that all of this, including the recips were from the embryologist, so you would think he has the game down better than anyone....

I would question the timing of implanting the recips and the protocol used to prepare those females for the embryo.  If they were one day out of sync it increases your odds of that egg sticking. 

Regardless of what happened, I personally would take my chances putting all 6 of the other embryos in, and with the sales results of two progeny from this mating toping $20,000, I know a lot of farms where she wouldn't have a natural calf but would become the diva of the farm and get flushed regularly.  Best of luck!!!!

 

[Cowboy]

I will also defend the BULL on this topic, at least as far as his ability to fertilize an egg -- if he were the reason, you would not have any good embryos to transfer -- simple math.

On another note, as most of you know I Have been at this ET game for 30 years, so I have seen the good, bad AND ugly. One of the real ugly things that come to the survace on rare occasions is the fact that SOME cows will not be good conception donors, no matter how good or bad the mebryos look, they just do not get pregnant.

I transferred  7 excellent eggs FRESH last year for one of my best customers, great people and great cows, and we got nothing , -0-, it happens and is really frustrating and unfair to all. The donor has been flushed here before and did well each time, but not too many eggs were transferred that I Have record of, so who knows.

Another donor that comes to mind, would NEVER produce an embryo that would be called a grade one OR two -- she never did, they were always the UGLY eggs we all see at times. She, however, also never had a flush that did less than 80% pregnancies -- whether they were fresh or (God forbide freezing her) frozen, they did great every time. Genetics play a huge role in this game -- but there is also more as Justintime so eloquently mentioned above.

FEED and it affects. Folks, if you think that nice green luch growing grass in April and May is your friend for ET, you are all wrong. Set up a group of recips in your lot and have them in there for - say - a month. Transfer your eggs, wait till you see who comes back, and turn out the ones who did not return and see what happens! First, you might as well have given half of them a shot of Lut -- that pretty green grass has high levels of Estrogens in it, and when you expose a cow to that while she is under 45 days (Pre-implantation period) she is going to get a strong signal to show heat and return! Alot of the time they lose thier short pregnancy and come right in heat within a week after turn out! Bottom line is this -- ACLAMATE your recips to the feed source you are going to have them on BEFORE the ET date and leave them there -- do not go from dry feed to green if you are under 50 days at least! Nuf said.

Fall is less concerning as everytihng is dried up and is all but the same.

As far as why your eggs failed, like I SAID, sometimes crap just happens, but most of the time there is a reason. I am sure the ET center would not be in business if they were not able to perform, but the HEAT index this year has been brutal, so it may very well be your problem!

Sorry for the long ramble, but as you can see by the time I am writting, this is what I do - I just got in from breeding a cow while most every one else is sleeping -- gotta love it!

Terry

 

[dknupp]

Thanks for the comments guys.  Lots of good things to think about here, learn from, and ask my embryo vet about.

Just to mention, like I said before...won't cost me a thing to get the other 6 transfered as the vet offered to transfer those for free.  Also, trust me she is a diva in my mind...thats why I left her open and flushed her three times this last year...I thoiught I was good for a while with 17 good embryo's so I stopped and got the cow bred back.  Guess not.....

I don't have that many cows...over the last 7 years I've slowly been building up to 30 cows.  I've rasied some good ones, and have some above average cows.  However, theire really is not much difference in my mind between an average cow and a above average one.....I'm looking for these super cows!  I finally found one.....done everything right...and still can't get it done! LOL  I should also add that I had one of these super cows 7 years ago as well....she got struck by lightening!  Seriously....thats my luck!

 

[ploughshare]

I would agree that this is not a donor/semen issue.  This is one reason I do not like direct transfer embryos.  Back in the day the embryos would be thawed, placed in a petri dish, examined and then implanted.  I would ready your recips as you would your donor, high plain of nutrition, chelated minerals, low stress, and heat detect as if the banker is watching.  I also have had better luck with embryos that were later stage.  I am not aware of data that indicates pregnancy rates vs. stage.

 

[3dfarms]

I should also add that I had one of these super cows 7 years ago as well....she got struck by lightening!  Seriously....thats my luck!

Get you some livestock insurance!  We bought a donor a few years ago that was one of 3 females with this mating.  Only one had been promoted heavy and had some outstanding progeny out there.  We purchased the donor, had someone call the day we bought her and say they would take every embryo we flushed out of her for the first two flushes at a set rate (a good one at that).  In my mind she was paid for after this deal if everything went well.  Cow cut her leg on who knows what the day before we picked her up from her previous owner.  He had their vet check her and doctor on the leg, everything to be fine.  Two weeks later (8 days before we were to start giving shots for the flush) she was down in the paddock near our barn.  She ate, drank, no problem but wouldn't get up.  Long story short next morning she was DEAD!  Sent her to one of NC State's research labs to see what happened.  Turns out leg got infected and infection spread all over her in two weeks....total loss!  Best of luck!

 

[Darkside]

I have been waiting 3 days for the Cowboy to reply. Good to see your still out there I was starting to worry.

 

[dknupp]

I had insurance...but not what she was worth...I claimed about twice market price.....I don't like claiming too much on insurance!

Me and you must have drank the same water at some point!