First Calf Heifers Calves as Replacements

[Warrior10]

I know some people prefer not to keep heifer calves out of first calf heifers as replacements. What are your thoughts on the topic?

 

[RyanChandler]

They resulting calves should carry the most improved genetics on your place.  It'd be silly to write one off just because its dam was a first Calver.

 

[HAB]

I agree with X Bar.  The fastest way to improve or make changes is by using heifers out of first calvers.  Unless you are using bulls "just to get a live calf", because your heifers can't have 80 lb calves.  If that is the case, I would look at replacing your heifers.  That is my opinion.

 

[Skibinski Farms]

We AI all of our replacements and keep their first calves back. Usually all the heifer calves and a bull calf or 2. Been doing this for a long time

 

[Warrior10]

I agree with the thoughts above, always wondered why the other side of the fence thought what they do. Maybe it has something to do with certain heifer bulls won't give their calves as much growth.

 

[chambero]

Serious commercial ranchers tend to follow this practice religously.  All things being equal, calves from first calf heifers are always going to be lighter weight due.  Add on to that that commercial ranches are using low birth weight bulls to the greatest extent possible, means even smaller calves.  Smaller heifers are going to be ready to breed later in the year than their counterparts out of mature cows.  It's all about mass production and maximizing the number of females you can breed in the tightest window possible.  Keeping heifers out of first calf heifers increases that standard deviation.

If you want to baby the mommas along and feed them and their calves harder, you can erase a lot of that disadvantage.

I usually do keep several replacements out of first calf heifers each year, and invariable most of my non-breeders predominantly come from those (not babied, AI'd once, and put with a bull for 90 days).

 

[Warrior10]

Serious commercial ranchers tend to follow this practice religously.  All things being equal, calves from first calf heifers are always going to be lighter weight due.  Add on to that that commercial ranches are using low birth weight bulls to the greatest extent possible, means even smaller calves.  Smaller heifers are going to be ready to breed later in the year than their counterparts out of mature cows.  It's all about mass production and maximizing the number of females you can breed in the tightest window possible.  Keeping heifers out of first calf heifers increases that standard deviation.

If you want to baby the mommas along and feed them and their calves harder, you can erase a lot of that disadvantage.

I usually do keep several replacements out of first calf heifers each year, and invariable most of my non-breeders predominantly come from those (not babied, AI'd once, and put with a bull for 90 days).

Good points Chambero!

 

[RyanChandler]

Serious commercial ranchers tend to follow this practice religously.  All things being equal, calves from first calf heifers are always going to be lighter weight due.  Add on to that that commercial ranches are using low birth weight bulls to the greatest extent possible, means even smaller calves.  Smaller heifers are going to be ready to breed later in the year than their counterparts out of mature cows.

I agree that is some ranchers explanation but I disagree with their premise.  Growth rate has nothing to do with sexual maturity. Sexual maturity is almost always contingent on age.  The smaller heifers should be even more desirable as they carry on the superior genetics in a more economical package. Imagine a cow passing on the growth genetics of a 1400lb cow but because her first calf mother didnt milk enough, you only have to sustain her mature in a 1200lb package.

 

[Mueller Show Cattle]

Well, show cattle and commercial cattle are way different. But I would in no way follow this for the show cattle, not in the commercial either in my opinion. I have a Meyer 734 heifer just had her 1st calf and is turning into a great cow now. She just had a Northern Improvement heifer and it is a nice one, going to keep her for a clubby producer for me without even thinking about it, I knew if it was a heifer, I was keeping her.

 

[Warrior10]

Well, show cattle and commercial cattle are way different. But I would in no way follow this for the show cattle, not in the commercial either in my opinion. I have a Meyer 734 heifer just had her 1st calf and is turning into a great cow now. She just had a Northern Improvement heifer and it is a nice one, going to keep her for a clubby producer for me without even thinking about it, I knew if it was a heifer, I was keeping her.

Same boat I am in, Who Made Who and Meyer 734 grand daughter with a killer Jesse James heifer. Hard to not send that pedigree to the replacement pen.

 

[RyanChandler]

Well, show cattle and commercial cattle are way different. But I would in no way follow this for the show cattle, not in the commercial either in my opinion. I have a Meyer 734 heifer just had her 1st calf and is turning into a great cow now. She just had a Northern Improvement heifer and it is a nice one, going to keep her for a clubby producer for me without even thinking about it, I knew if it was a heifer, I was keeping her.

Same boat I am in, Who Made Who and Meyer 734 grand daughter with a killer Jesse James heifer. Hard to not send that pedigree to the replacement pen.

That line of thought will get you in trouble real quick like. 

 

[Warrior10]

Well, show cattle and commercial cattle are way different. But I would in no way follow this for the show cattle, not in the commercial either in my opinion. I have a Meyer 734 heifer just had her 1st calf and is turning into a great cow now. She just had a Northern Improvement heifer and it is a nice one, going to keep her for a clubby producer for me without even thinking about it, I knew if it was a heifer, I was keeping her.

Same boat I am in, Who Made Who and Meyer 734 grand daughter with a killer Jesse James heifer. Hard to not send that pedigree to the replacement pen.

That line of thought will get you in trouble real quick like.

She passes the eye test too.

 

[Mueller Show Cattle]

Couple comments on that, always go with your gut feeling. I have never been burnt on that, why cause like I said show cattle are different then commercial. I feed my show cattle cows no different then our commercial cattle cows. If they don't pan out to be show cattle, then the worst is they go down to the auction barn like the commercial cattle and bring the same price in the auction barn, all of mine have that did not pan out to be show cattle. So I am out nothing cause I feed them no different. As far as the cows, if they have the genetics backing them, I give them a shot, if they don't produce the calves you are looking for, down the road they go. I have seen plenty of cows that did not look the best but flat out produce great club calves when bred to the rite clubby bull. The other way also which I have herd many stories on SP, when they got an awesome looking cow/heifer that just did not produce the home run that they were expecting. I always go with my gut and give them a shot, cause I'm out nothing if they don't pan out, if the genetics are there that have been proven to produce good club calves, I think you owe yourself a shot to let her show what she can produce.

 

[rackranch]

How many shots do you give them? Do you base your decision off her first calve or second?

Good points made by everyone.

Couple comments on that, always go with your gut feeling. I have never been burnt on that, why cause like I said show cattle are different then commercial. I feed my show cattle cows no different then our commercial cattle cows. If they don't pan out to be show cattle, then the worst is they go down to the auction barn like the commercial cattle and bring the same price in the auction barn, all of mine have that did not pan out to be show cattle. So I am out nothing cause I feed them no different. As far as the cows, if they have the genetics backing them, I give them a shot, if they don't produce the calves you are looking for, down the road they go. I have seen plenty of cows that did not look the best but flat out produce great club calves when bred to the rite clubby bull. The other way also which I have herd many stories on SP, when they got an awesome looking cow/heifer that just did not produce the home run that they were expecting. I always go with my gut and give them a shot, cause I'm out nothing if they don't pan out, if the genetics are there that have been proven to produce good club calves, I think you owe yourself a shot to let her show what she can produce.

 

[bcosu]

If they are good, we keep them. If they aren't good, we throw them in the feedlot and feed them out.

Good pedigree and a cow family might sway one towards being kept if she is borderline.

 

[Mueller Show Cattle]

How many shots do you give them? Do you base your decision off her first calve or second?

Good points made by everyone.

I don't make a decision until they have had a calf out of a mature clubby bull (not a calving ease bull) such as Walks Alone, Monopoly, or so on. I don't don't make my decision cause of a calf out of a calving easy bull, not saying the calving easy bulls aren't good. My set up, I can wait a couple years (2-3) to see if she pans out or not cause if the calves don't pan out in with the commercial calves they go.

 

[leanbeef]

I tend to think along the lines of the earlier posts... The calves out of your first-calf-heifers are the most current genetics and should be at the top of the list genetically. We don't use throw away bulls on heifers...if she can't have a respectable calf as a two-year-old, then she doesn't need to be in our program. Our top-selling bull and top-selling heifer two years ago were both out of first-calf-heifers that we flushed as four-year-olds this spring. It never would have occurred to me to penalize either of them for being their mama's first time out of the chute.

I understand the philosophy of commercial programs that use calving ease bulls on large groups of heifers. Still, there are plenty of those bulls that offer enough growth and superior replacement opportunities, so I would argue those breeders are wasting a year of genetic improvement with every generation of replacements they keep back. A lot of those guys calve their heifers earlier than the cow herd anyway, so the calves out of heifers should be the oldest calves...I would think that would make them logical candidates to retain in the herd. Sexual maturity is a function of weight, not just age. So replacement heifers need to have some performance in order to cycle and breed earlier in the breeding season. That doesn't necessarily mean the biggest, fastest growing heifer calves make the best cows in the long run. I don't think that's true, either.

 

[Warrior10]

Good thoughts by everyone! I agree with most of whats stated above, I give most females a chance (sometimes 2) of being stuck to one of the "big boys". If they can't produce I don't mind shipping them and working to get something better.

 

[Limiman12]

It was mentioned that commercial guys keep large volumes of heifers and breed them to calving ease sires......  That there are many that have "enough" growth to fit in with the herd....

Couldn't agree more!  We are flushing a pure bred cow to a bull that would be considered calving ease.  He would also be considered a good maternal bull, and a good growth bull.  We are not doing it to produce show calves.  We are doing it in hopes of getting a handful of top notch cows out of the flush that will be viable in our commercial herd worst case but have the potential to be "game changers" in a given year AIed to the right bull, we a also AIing two heifers to the same bull.  Hoping for heifer calves to keep.  Calving ease is a good trait to keep as a foundation in ANY commercial herd as long as it does not sacrifice growth, pelvic size etc.  obviously bulls out of the flush a going to carrying the same hopes, as far as being viable in a commercial herd, with the chance for a STUD!  Many problems arise when single trait selection occurs, no matter the trait, if the heifers you keep have to be bred to a calving ease "specialist" that produces a live calf but not much else, I would think you need to think about weather or not you should keep the heifer.

 

[RyanChandler]

What are some bulls that are trait leaders for both bw and ww?