Frame Score Questions?

[j3cattleco]

Okay afrter traveling Oklahoma for the past week looking at cattle on wheat and on hay bales, the questions about people and frame scores kept running through my head.  Everyone yells that there too moderate or there too big but, I was wondering what you all looked at as your desired endpoint.  I will tellyou first off in our operation in OK I want a 5 to no bigger than a 6 frame score.  We find these cattle hold condition better through the winter on less hay and wean heavier calves than the bigger cows, because they take less inputs to produce the milk and retain body condition.  by the way the cow that produces our heaviest calf every year without a doubt is a frame score 4.5.  She milks like a holstein and will wean 700 lbs calves at 5 to 6 months with out creep.  When she calves again whe will be fat as a tick.  Now my wife is from SD and up there her father runs bigger cows probably mostly 6's to 6.5's but we still wean as heavy of calves as he does with smaller cows and we feed less in the winter.  However up there I have heard about discounts on cattle that are below frame 6's and we don't see that in OK or the texas panhandle.

Here is the mature bull and cow measurements for frame sizes incase someone didn't quite know.  My guess also is some don't exactly know these measurements and call animals smaller than they really are.  A 56" mature bull is plenty big for me.  Tell me what you all think.

Bulls
52.3" frame score 3
54.1 frame score 4
55.9 frame score 5
58.0 frame score 6
60.0 frame score 7
62.0 frame score 8

females
48.2 frame score 3
50.0 frame score 4
52.0 frame score 5
53.9 frame score 6
55.8 frame score 7
57.5 frame score 8

 

[kanshow]

I have noticed local discounts on smaller framed cattle at the sale barn.  I also attended a bull sale last week..  bulls sold good with the exception of some 5 frame bulls.  Those smaller bulls were just as thick as the rest & EPD's were comparable.. but I'd guess they averaged $500 less.

 

[simtal]

sometimes moderate is nice way of saying short

 

[CPL]

My ideal would be 5-6, but I still think you could do alright with a few exceptions. I am more concerned about type than size. A Frame 7 cow can still be easy keeping. But then you can also have frame 5's that are very hard keeping.

As to what the show ring wants, it changes all the time. What some of these guys are calling moderate is not even close to my definition of it. But then mine is not exactly the same as Kit Pharo's, so I guess it just depends who you're talking to.

 

[j3cattleco]

I have noticed local discounts on smaller framed cattle at the sale barn.   I also attended a bull sale last week..  bulls sold good with the exception of some 5 frame bulls.  Those smaller bulls were just as thick as the rest & EPD's were comparable.. but I'd guess they averaged $500 less.

 

Where these simmi bulls?  I have a buddy who is a simmi breeder up north and they do have trouble selling bulls under a 6.

sometimes moderate is nice way of saying short

I understand that but what is short to you.  That's the question.  I also don't align myself with the Kit Pharo thought, but I do like a more moderate cow that some up north.  I agree CPL with your type designation, however a easy keeping big cow will still eat more hay than easy keeping 5 or 6 cow.  Just like my buddy is 6 foot 7 and weighs 300 lbs he eats more than I do at 5 foot 9 and 150. 

 

[kanshow]

Yes, Simm & SimAngus bulls..  the 6's were still in the money but those 5's really got hit on the price. 

 

[TJ]

Frame 4.5, give or take an inch or 2.

RE discounts & commercial economics...

A 5 cent discount on a 600 lb. calf = $30  A 10 cent discount on that same calf = $60

According to a Cattle Today article, 1000 pound cows have an annual feed cost of around $297.  1,200 pound cows have an annual feed costs of around $332.  A 200 lb. bigger cow will cost you $35 more per year.  Many 1,000 lb. cows will wean 600 lb. male calves without pampering & I wouldn't want one that couldn't.   Most 1,200 lb. cows will not wean a calf all that much bigger & their bigger calves eat more too (more increased feed costs).    Take your cows up to 1,400-1,600, which is typical in many herds, & we are probably talking costs well over $100 compared to those 1,000 lb. cows.  Over $100 would be equal to almost a 20 cent discount on a 600 lb. calf!  And when you factor in any calf losses, your cull cows, your cows raising heifers (assuming that they are fairly equal in value as replacements), etc...  your cost on a "per calf sold" basis, can really start to widen.     

I can tell you that easy fleshing, small framed dry cows, will stay fat on only baled corn stalks.  Cows that are harder doing & are bigger framed, will require a decent amount of supplemental feed, if you fed them baled corn stalks.  It's not just the amount of feed with a bigger cow, it often boils down to having to feed them "better feed" & that higher quality feed usually costs more & feeding it, also increases labor, fuel, etc, etc.         

And lets not forget (which I did forget to mention) that you can run more 1,000 lb. cows on the same amount of ground, "usually" producing more total pounds of calves, than you can running 1,400+ lb. cows.

Profit is the bottom line, not the gross. 

Give me a 4.5 frame cow any day of the week.  And if you still aren't convinced, breed that cow to an easy/moderate calving, bigger framed bull & watch the money roll in.  ;-)

 

[red]

TJ- I was waiting for your post!  (lol)

Red

 

[TJ]

TJ- I was waiting for your post!  (lol)

Red

;D

I try not to disappoint too much.  (lol)

 

[jbzdad]

for commercial guys that is just great but I just sold some six weight calves born in march, weaned in Sept. and on oat hay and grain until jan.. maybe gained two pounds a day for three and a half mos, so probably gained 150-200 pounds... so did i wean 450 pounders ?  this was probably my bottom half ( heifers and heifers from first calf heifers) but ...so far.... I am not weaning 600 pounders and my cows probably weigh 1150 average... trying to raise a show calf, some maine some angus cross,,, maybe if I measure their height and calculate their frame score they will start doing better

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

A six plus frame score works best for us, a seven or two doesn't hurt a thing either. When our bull customers show up it is always the biggest, stoutest, growthiest bulls that gather the premium. A five frame score bull will be several hundred dollars less (that's assuming we can get him sold). You have to raise the type of cattle that your customers want, that is the bottom line. I figure that I can feed a bigger cow more economically if the calf she raises a calf that will generate from $500 to $1000 a year more than the smaller cow that costs $50 a year less to feed. RW

 

[red]

I run from a score of 7 to 5.5
Use bulls that can downsize & add growth if needed.

Red

 

[Cattledog]

Give me a 4.5 frame cow any day of the week.  And if you still aren't convinced, breed that cow to an easy/moderate calving, bigger framed bull & watch the money roll in.  ;-)

I truly do appreciate what the lowline breed has done but I just am not a fan of a cow less than 6 frame.  My grandfather has raised cattle for over 50 years and tells me the worst time he ever had was when he had cows in the 4.5 - 5.0 frame.  He said that he did like how they didn't need much feed, but he said that the mud was a problem.  He said the calves couldn't get low enough to nurse and mastitis was real issue. 

Now before everyone jumps down my throat  I  realize that cattle have changed alot and maybe the lowline breed does well but my customers just don't want anything that moderate.  I make my money selling show cattle.  Market price is something that I sell my mistakes for.  TJ, it seems like you have found a very good market for your cattle and have found a demand for your genetics.  I just don't really see that here in Illinois.

 

[shortyjock89]

I like a smaller framed cow, in the 5-6 range, I just don't like big cows. 

I think my Sonny cow is right in that range, and I've never heard anyone call her small! 

A more moderate cow fits for me because we don't have a whole lot of room, and running more cows means selling more calves, which obviously means more money for me  ;D 

I haven't sent a calf to the sale barn in over three years, I make ALL my money selling show cattle and grooming them.  (not bragging, just trying to get my situation across)

Just sayin as well, and I don't want to have to take sides here, but I don't know of the last time that TJ had a calf go to the sale barn either, and he doesn't just have Lowlines (although he WOULD have you thinking that  )  And while there aren't a TON of Lowline breeders in IL, there are a few, and there are more all the time.  We're gonna try out the Lowline thing on a heifer this year and on one of our HUGE cows and see how it goes.  If we can't sell the calves, then it's back to what we've been doing, but I don't think we'll have any trouble with moving the calves. 

I do know that you can't sell many small framed "regular" Angus in IL, all the big names are still running frame 7-8 cows it seems like.

 

[justintime]

This thread takes be back to the "dark ages:" before many of you here were even born. My thesis for my Bachelor's degree was titled "The Economics of Beef Cow Size and Reproductive Performance". I found this to be a most interesting topic and it gave me the opportunity to talk to some of the very best cattlemen of that era... and again I will say that this was over 30 years ago. In that time, there has been some major changes in type, within the beef industry. As I look back over that period of time, I find it interesting that the pendulum keeps swinging from one extreme to the other, and it seldom stops in the middle ( probably where it should be more often)

One of the key people who helped me a great deal with my thesis, was a man by the name of Jerry Linton from Chillicothe, Missouri. His purebred Charolais herd was known as Linton Charolais Ranch ( LCR prefix) and he was quite an amazing man. Jerry, along with his wife and two small children were killed in a plane crash returning home from a victory party after winning the primary for the US Senate. At the time, many leading politicians, felt he would become the US President  some day.

For many years Jerry used his Charolais herd to study many things, some of which were beef cow efficiency and reproductive efficiency. I will always remember picking the phone up one day and phoning this man. I was shaking in my boots as I was just  a small town college kid, and I did not know if he would even speak with me. He was one of the most gracious men I have ever spoken with. He supplied me with years of data from his herd and he phoned me on a very regular basis to see how my thesis was coming. He became a good friend,despite my being several years youngerthan him. When he died at age 39, I felt like a member of my family had died.

Getting back to the topic at hand, Jerry told me many many times, to always avoid extremes in either direction. The research in his herd suggested that the most efficient cow  was a frame 5.75 to 6 frame cow,which weighed 1450-1500 lbs. I happen to think that this is probably close to the same in today's world. His research also figured in the value of selling the cull cows from the herd, which is oftentimes not considered by most people. He said that the average herd  culled 12-14 % of their cow numbers each year for various reasons, so their value at the market was a very important  economic consideration. I think Jerry Linton was right. I have oftentimes thought of what a loss this man was to the cattle industry and probably to the entire US nation.

I also researched many other studies conducted by numerous universities and research faicilities . Considerable research was done on cow efficiency at the USDA research station at Miles City Montana. The U of Colorado, U of Wyoming, U of Alberta and  the U of Saskatchewan have all done considerable research on this topic and they all came to the same conclusions. While there are some variations in the optimum cow size based on the management systems available, they all suggested that " somewhere in the middle" was the most efficient cow size. As I have said on here many times previously, I think that the word " optimum" is one of the most important words we have, whether it is in reference to cow size, the birth weights of calves in relation to growth, etc etc. Optimum also affects us in our own lives. Too much or too little of most things can be detrimental to us all.

 

[red]

the book Knabe sent me had a whole chapter on Jerry. Pioneers in the cattle industry.

Red

 

[Cattledog]

I do know that you can't sell many small framed "regular" Angus in IL, all the big names are still running frame 7-8 cows it seems like.

Exactly.  My cows are probably in the 6.5 to 7.5 range.  I also find it is easier downsizing frame.  I guess I just like the versatility that my cows give me.  BTW, the lowest adjusted weaning weight we had was 650lbs.  Now, we did have a really good calf crop and I won't say that we do that every year.  I don't know what our actual 205 day weights are because I usually wean around 5 or 6 months of age.

 

[braunvieh]

We have cows from 5 to 7. We do linear measuring and what we have found is that if the cattle are taller but porportionally thicker, they do just fine in comparison to their smaller contemporaries. We have a ratio that divides hip height into rump width. That number should be 44% or higher. If they are, they are generally easy keeping, easy fleshing animals. We also look at heart girth vs body length for indicators of vigor, efficiency and adaptability. We go by the numbers of the measurements rather than a particular frame size and that works well for us. Whole package vs a single trait.

 

[TJ]

Give me a 4.5 frame cow any day of the week.  And if you still aren't convinced, breed that cow to an easy/moderate calving, bigger framed bull & watch the money roll in.  ;-)

I truly do appreciate what the lowline breed has done but I just am not a fan of a cow less than 6 frame.  My grandfather has raised cattle for over 50 years and tells me the worst time he ever had was when he had cows in the 4.5 - 5.0 frame.  He said that he did like how they didn't need much feed, but he said that the mud was a problem.  He said the calves couldn't get low enough to nurse and mastitis was real issue. 

Now before everyone jumps down my throat  I  realize that cattle have changed alot and maybe the lowline breed does well but my customers just don't want anything that moderate.  I make my money selling show cattle.  Market price is something that I sell my mistakes for.  TJ, it seems like you have found a very good market for your cattle and have found a demand for your genetics.  I just don't really see that here in Illinois.

I'm not going to jump down your throat. 

It doesn't get much mudder than it does here in KY.  I'm 5 miles south of the Ohio & Wabash Rivers, the Mississippi is about 90 miles west of me, KY & Barkley Lakes (2 largest man made lakes in the USA are 40-60 miles west of here... lots of water (KY has more shore line, than Florida!!) & lots of rain.  Plus, we have freezing & thawing all winter.  I haven't encountered a problem yet & I'm talking about cows well under 4.5 frame. 

I want to say that I only live about 6 miles from IL & 12 miles from the bridge that crosses into IL.  IL is a pretty good market for me & lots of inquiries.  Our Eastern Region Vice President is from Springfield, IL.  They market grassfed beef in "corn country".  The guy that buys steers from me, to grass finish, lives near Princeton, IL (above Peoria).  But, it's not all grass steers, many from IL are after breeding stock too.             

 

[Cattledog]

Well, maybe another reason my grandpa had problems was udder quality.  since it was before my time when he ran cattle of that frame I can't tell you what the udders were like.  If the udders don't have good attachment they'll hang low.

Just curious, as a whole how is the udder quality of lowline cattle?  I have only seen a couple lowline heifers and I haven't seen any in production.