Genetic Defects in Shorthorns

[justintime]

In recent times, I have seen many cattle producers getting pretty hot and bothered over an animal that was a DS carrier. One case in particular, that comes to my mind, was a good heifer that sold recently. I never saw this heifer myself, but I have been told several times that she would have sold for 2-3 times more, if she had not been a DS carrier. My question is why so many people are freaking out over this DS defect? I suspect if this heifer had been a TH carrier or possibly even a PHA carrier, that she would have not been discounted much in the sale. So does this mean DS is a worse defect than TH or PHA?
A few years ago, I was sitting at one of the major production sales in the US and I heard a couple people talking near me about TH. One man asked the other person, what the " TH carrier" status meant on a heifer he had selected. The other man answered him and said that he just meant that the heifer would show better being a carrier. He told him not to worry about buying a TH carrier heifer. The heifer sold for $40,000.
To me, there is no such thing as a good defect among these defects I have mentioned. If I had to chose a defect that I could live with, I think it would be the DS defect. I got a real shock a few weeks ago, when I got the test results back on some of my donor cows. One of my non appendix donors came back as being a DS carrier. I never expected this result, and she had produced in our herd for many years. I have 5 daughters and several grand daughters in our herd. So far, I have tested 3 of her daughters and all three have come back DS free, and I am awaiting the results on the other two. I have never seen any issues from this female line and it makes me wonder how many other DS carriers have gone through my herd?  My DS carrier cow, who was a donor cow for me for many years, is now a recip. Her DS free daughters will replace her in our breeding herd.
So I am wondering why so many people are treating this DS defect with more fear and loathing than I think was the case with TH and PHA? As I said, I would prefer all breeds to eliminate defects when they appear. I think we are playing with fire, and some day someone is going to get burnt. So why is it, that we have now seen genetic defects for several years and now the most recent one, DS, is being treated as if it caused leprosy.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

 

[Doc]

JIT, I agree 100% with the deal about DS. I agree that DS to me is the defect that bothers me the least. I am still using DSC bulls, just careful what I use them on.
I understand what you mean about people not being informed about the defects. I have an example like you. At the TN Beef Agribition this year, there was a heifer that was DSC and PHAC. A girl bought her and when she came to claim her from the stalls after the sale, she asked the seller if the heifer needed to be on a special diet because of the 2 diseases she had?

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I agree with JIT and DOC-DS actually seems to actually come into play (or manifest)with less frequency than TH or PHA- As I have stated in the past-Ive never knowingly encountered a Ds infected animal that was a physical speciman exhibiting the crippling outcome. BREED EM TO A CLEAN ONE and stop being so paranoid.It just doesnt make sense to throw away a really good female etc that may have taken generations to develope. There are a growing number of way good "freaky thick "yak haired""Shire Footred" "you would swear he or she is DUBLE DURTY"yatta yatta DOUBLE CLEAN animals that emerged from carriers-and that number is steadily growing. Not saying that they are everyones phenotype-but all things being equal- ONCE 1 is free of all defects-do you still act like an Ostridge and bury your head in rhe sand? OR:soar with the eagles with a functional calender, rad calves, and everything. O0

 

[aj]

There are tools to manage defects......or try to eliminate them. I would love to see the industry 100 years from now. How will breeds be viewed and what their niche will be. I assume some herds....if clean.....will try and stay clean. I think there will always be a market for Shorthorn show cattle carriers. Historically the 4-h family is in registered cattle for 5 years on ave. They go in with a cattle IQ of a grape fruit. So they don't care. Good topic.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

There are tools to manage defects......or try to eliminate them. I would love to see the industry 100 years from now. How will breeds be viewed and what their niche will be. I assume some herds....if clean.....will try and stay clean. I think there will always be a market for Shorthorn show cattle carriers. Historically the 4-h family is in registered cattle for 5 years on ave. They go in with a cattle IQ of a grape fruit. So they don't care. Good topic./// We were all grapefruits at one time or another-particularly when we either didnt know about rhe massive number of defects-with Angus (as usual) in the forefront for sheer volume.now that the press has gotten ahold of it- I think its alot more straightforeward in explanation by the "agricultureural media" than anything else in comparison when it comes to the press in general  Where was your IQ when you had all those high BW way cool looking Sodhouse Maine deals like Mr Man etc-pray tell-any carriers? Hope you didnt work that hard creating what I thought were cool thick ones somewhat in the vien of Shirleys cattle in Western Kansas-and just dump them instead of breeding them clean. PS-Whats left of mine are in Southern Kansas-and that aint no pamprered feedlot existance-niether was Deertrail before that-so I chose to hold onto the range genetics per-se,and we havent had any Smith-Wesson calves now that we became aware of what TH and PHA are: but thats just my choice.I like thick cattle that are survivors O0

 

[DLD]

I hesitate to even say this because I haven't really researched it myself, but a friend of mine had kept a really nice Shorthorn calf for a bull. He told me that he had him tested and was told that he was a "homozygous DS carrier", meaning that he could sire an affected calf even out of a clean cow. Now I know that isn't the normal heritability of the defects we're used to dealing with, like PHA and TH, but if it's true, it certainly could make a DS carrier much riskier than a TH or PHA carrier being carefully mated.

That bull calf is a steer now, btw.

 

[ifinditfunny]

A DSH when bred to a clean cow will make a carrier everytime. But will never sire an homozgote.  Also a DSH is not a dead calf like TH and PHA.

 

[Doc]

Also a DSH is not a dead calf like TH and PHA.

That is exactly right. And that is kinda the point that I take. I know of several DSH bulls out there , that are as structurally correct as any animal. I know that Monte Soules big thing is that it may not show up until they are 5 or 6. I would like to know what the percentage of cattle is that people have that make it much past that age? Especially bulls.

 

[aj]

I'd never thought of DS being a longevity-stayability issue. But really that might be DS biggest factor. Wonder how DS females hold up? Oh wait....the breed doesn't have a stayability epd. They run Bolz out of town on that deal. Well Shorthorns are almost as good as Angus on data collection. Bahahaha.

 

[justintime]

I imagine that the DS defect has probably been in the breed for as long as TH has, seeing that many of the animals that have either or both of these defects go back to the same animal in their pedigree. I have never seen an animal that has expressed the DS defect. Unfortunately, I have seen more TH defect calves than I care to remember. I was fortunate to be have several TH calves before the defect was identified. I used a grandson of Deerpark Improver on a set of great grand daughters of Deerpark Improver 57th and had 6 TH calves in the first 10 born from these heifers. As I said, I don't even like the fact that some of these defects can be " managed" as I think it is much better for the long term health of any breed to eliminate defects. You know the saying about short term pain...

In regards to stayability, I find one of the problems I have is that Shorthorns seem to last longer in breeding programs than some other breeds. I have one bull customer who has purchased 22 bulls from us in the last 10 years. He also uses Angus and Charolais bulls. He tells me almost every year, that he would buy more bulls from me, if he wasn't still using some of the bulls he bought many years ago. He is still using the two bulls he purchased from me 9 years ago. It is very normal for Shorthorn females to stay in our herd past 10 years of age. I have had several cows still producing good calves at 15 years of age. I am flushing a 15 year old and a 16 year old cow right now. Both are fat after being wintered on only hay and still reproductively sound.

 

[sue]

Also a DSH is not a dead calf like TH and PHA.

That is exactly right. And that is kinda the point that I take. I know of several DSH bulls out there , that are as structurally correct as any animal. I know that Monte Soules big thing is that it may not show up until they are 5 or 6. I would like to know what the percentage of cattle is that people have that make it much past that age? Especially bulls.

Actually alot of the DSH and DSC bulls out there have bred past age 5 or 6, Jake's Proud Jazz is a great example of a bull with a great deal of natural coverage well past age 10 in spring/fall breeding programs. The sire to Uncle and even Uncle himself is not a young bull(s). To each it's own, but when breeding I look closely at Genetics that do or did cover naturally for years and years. We have had a marker since May of 2013 and yet only until this year is it mandatory to test A.I. sires and donors, it's made it very difficult for breeders to make educated decisions about what genetics to use. I do test and in fact was the first to post with the ASA-  Here is more to think about - marketing black Shorthorn Plus cattle that have stemmed from commerical herds/nonregistered genetics and that were not tested for the 8 or 9 Angus based genetic  issues ?

 

[librarian]

I just addressed this issue with Angus X. I have saved from one Angus cow, out of an 036 son, and her daughter out of a bull that was out of an 036 daughter. From those two cows, which are great on everything, I have shorthorn crosses, reciprocal Galloway crosses etc, etc and a yearling bull out all that soup to put back on his half sisters.
I just had the 2 original cows tested for DD and got the results back: both clean.
Great. Otherwise I would have had to test my way through all those progeny and sort out the carriers. It could be a real train wreck. It's my good fortune that my neighbors keep great records on their cows and could tell me the sires on these two commercial cows, 10 years ago, out of their 200 head commercial herd.
Thank God for The kitchen table.

 

[idalee]

I have zero confidence in the DS test.    I recently visited a shorthorn herd who linebred (inbred) a  DS carrier bull up to the 5th generation and never had a DS calf.    Certainly, in that time,  if the test were accurate,  at least one calf would have been born that was affected.    Either the test is or  was false or the genetic and phenotypic expression of this character is different that we think.  In any case,  a bad test is worse than no test because it destroys the breeding value of an animal.    This "defect??" needs a lot more work.  Eventually,  we may actually find out it is not a genetic defect at all but probably some environmental impact to which some animals are more sensitive. 

 

[knabe]

Certainly, in that time,  if the test were accurate,  at least one calf would have been born that was affected.   

religion. using your analogy, one would get heads and tails on alternating flips over and over.




might want to read this.
http://shorthorncountry.net/images/magazine/2014/april%20articles/wall_article.pdf
probably won't change your mind.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

The article is pretty important to anyone that has PHA-and or ds Shorthorns- Dont breed a known ds or PHA carrier to bloodlines that would have high propensity due to thier relationship to lines that obviously are carriers (tested or not)EXAMPLE if-that the animal is related to-any of the tribe of cattle that goes back to KABA Rose which is a bunch of Shorthorns and others, use your common sense-If Double Stuff ,Vision, Jazz, etc are carriers, dont use a known carier, one with obvious breeding but un-tested-or a PHA carrier-Common sense- sorta like-dont breed TH to TH unless you like train wrecks and losing money-Am I missing something? O0

 

[idalee]

So,  in Shorthorn Country article from 2014,  the following scenario to which I am referring with the herd inbreeding a DSC bull for up to 5 generations is described in part.  The first generation will be  DSF/PHAF  X  DSC/PHAF.    This results in 50% of the progeny to be DSC.  Breeding this same DSC bull back to his own daughters the next generation will result in 50% of the matings will now be DSC/PHAF  X  DSC/PHAF in which 25% of the offspring will now be DSH/PHAF.  As stated in the article,  rear limbs are likely to be affected in the DSH animals, but could appear normal.    If this same DSC bull is then mated back to his own granddaughters,  then 25% of the matings will be DSC/PHAF  X  DSH/PHAF  which results in 50% of those offspring will be  DSC/PHAF and 50% will be DSH/PHAF.    Again,  those 50% are likely to be affected but could appear normal.    In the forth generation,  50%  of the matings will be DSC/PHAF  X  DSH/PHAF.  At this point,  continued use of the original DSC bull on his great-great-great granddaughters and beyond,  does not increase the percentage of DSH offspring, which stabilizes as 50%.  This allows for a considerable number of offspring to be potentially affected,  but could be normal.    Where does your faith lead to the conclusion that none of these offspring will ever show an effect but yet DS is a still a real problem?

 

[Doc]

    Where does your faith lead to the conclusion that none of these offspring will ever show an effect but yet DS is a still a real problem?

You kinda lost me on all your projected matings. I don't know about faith having anything to do with it. For me it has to do with seeing several animals that have tested DSH and being structurally sound or to the number of people that you can talk to that has never seen a DS affected animal. To me it is not the problem that TH and PHA is.

 

[aj]

Idalee.......the next meeting of our county flat earth soceity is at my house NEXT Sunday. Its at 7pm right after our mutual admiration society meeting. First of all the tests are accurate period. How the defect is expressed might be hard to pin down. There may be wrinkles in studying pedigrees if a pedigree is wrong also. Two weird deals in the th thing though. You have a th and a th outcast condition. The second weird deal.......if you send in a test for th.......and the animal is a twin......be aware. I sent in a test for th.....a twin bull.....the test was inconclusive.....but I was told he was probably clean. He did sire a th calf. These are a couple of the th weird twists. Not sure if there are any twists like this in DS or not. The twin factor....somehow makes the th test a little goofy.

 

[OH Breeder]

A DSH when bred to a clean cow will make a carrier everytime. But will never sire an homozgote.  Also a DSH is not a dead calf like TH and PHA.

Breed a DSC or DSH to a PHC cow. THE worst combination. calf can have some of the most exaggerated defect to the point of immobility. I have had 4 DS calves. one of the four lived to weight that was able to be fed and butchered. super small and one limb affected. the other three could not move. LIke th in e early days of TH an til you have it in your herd and have to have one put down you won't see the severity. My first one was sent in 2008 to state lab here in Ohio. could not find anything physicall wrong except extreme deformities to the rear legs. Heifer aborted at 7-8 months. sent samples to IL to univeristy with tissues, blood pedigree, state lab report and pictures. nothing ever came of it. That mating was a what I later come to find out was a PHC cow and a DSC bull.
This is my little N population.

I say breed what works for you herd and cull accordingly. I personally couldn't stand the calf's struggles and it emotionally killed me to put down one of our thickest stoutest steer calves because he could no longer walk on his rear legs, he walked on the side of his hoof. He had pressure sores from trying to walk. he finally would just lay and his mother would come to him. People can say its 'non-lethal' all they want. Reality is the severity of defect will determine the "lethal-ness'" if thats even a word.  ???