Hello Shorthorn Breeders

[EaglesNest]

Hi All,
    I am a relatively new Shorthorn breeder. I entered in breed knowing very little about shorthorns as My father an I  had been a Salers breeders since 1984. When I got interested in getting back into registered stock after college I discovered a sad thing had occurred, there were virtually no pure Salers left all have been cross-bred black. True Salers are red!  I don't mind if ppl chose to crossbreed cattle for those seeking heterosis that's fine but don't call the offspring purebred bc that is a lie. Having said that I discovered soon after purchasing first shorthorns that they too do the same thing. However bc of their bylaws can't have black purebred so they opt to cross w red Maine anjou which for first calf heifers is like giving birth to an elephant. Two distinct branches exist in shorthorns, those breeding for club calves and those breeding for functional cattle.
  I have found out about native shorthorns which for those who don't know are the pure stock. I will admit I have some of both performance and natives, but am gradually weeding out the performance females and replacing with natives. I do not like the calving problems the Maine influenced shorthorns have. I don't understand why anyone would especially since several of the mainstream bulls throw huge calves, that often times are born dead. Not being smartypants but I'd take a 55# live calf any day over a 100# dead one any day.

I do not mean to insult anyone I just feel that regardless of breed no crossbred animal should be called purebred. Not saying crossbred cattle are bad in and of themselves just think they should have to declare blood percentages on reg papers.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Hi All,
     I am a relatively new Shorthorn breeder. I entered in breed knowing very little about shorthorns as My father an I  had been a Salers breeders since 1984. When I got interested in getting back into registered stock after college I discovered a sad thing had occurred, there were virtually no pure Salers left all have been cross-bred black. True Salers are red!  I don't mind if ppl chose to crossbreed cattle for those seeking heterosis that's fine but don't call the offspring purebred bc that is a lie. Having said that I discovered soon after purchasing first shorthorns that they too do the same thing. However bc of their bylaws can't have black purebred so they opt to cross w red Maine anjou which for first calf heifers is like giving birth to an elephant. Two distinct branches exist in shorthorns, those breeding for club calves and those breeding for functional cattle.
  I have found out about native shorthorns which for those who don't know are the pure stock. I will admit I have some of both performance and natives, but am gradually weeding out the performance females and replacing with natives. I do not like the calving problems the Maine influenced shorthorns have. I don't understand why anyone would especially since several of the mainstream bulls throw huge calves, that often times are born dead. Not being smartypants but I'd take a 55# live calf any day over a 100# dead one any day.

I do not mean to insult anyone I just feel that regardless of breed no crossbred animal should be called purebred. Not saying crossbred cattle are bad in and of themselves just think they should have to declare blood percentages on reg papers.

Hi from Brazil.
Many breeds show the desiree to became "modern and popular", Salers, Maines, Gelbviehs, Simmentak became blacks and Shorthorns infused Maine Anjou, Holstein, Chianina and others to get size for a "modern ephemerus world" that work on this way for a couple decades.
The ASA had a symbol (*) in front of register number for differe thus infused bloodlines from other, unhappily Irish influenced animal are keep as pure and not received this (*), and Irish animals are open pedigrees. If is very hardy show confidence about purity on full pedigrees, think you what can be found on open pdigrees. But this was a thing that not was a problem for US/CAN breeders. After a time the (*) symbol was take off, today for know what kind genetics a Shorthorn bring you must chck back generations to certificate it.
On UK also was infusions of Maine Anjou, a different kind of Maines, and Society keeps the blood percentages until 2000, after that percentages were take off, so you also need check back generations for check the genetics on animals.
I respect all cases, but as a breeder that wish keep and follow a different selection line, I would like to have options for choose what kind genetics I'm looking for, for this a clear marked pedigree is important.
Really I don't know were fullnlood registered cattle will reach. So many blood infusions on many breeds are becaming rare a full pure animal. So why keep a register, paying taxes, keeping records.....if on final on the road all will to be crossed cattle without fixed characteristcs that will segregate on second cross (including black hide).
Well this is my view point and keep respect with different ones, but would like ask for people also respect my one and keep all pedigrees well clear marked for people have options and knowledge were get it.

 

[JTM]

Wecome to the Shorthorn breed and welcome to Steer Planet! You are starting out with some good knowledge that will help you attain your goals with Shorthorns. We breed both ends of the spectrum but are going further and further towards the functional type due reasons like you stated. I hope the best for you in your Shorthorn endeavor! Awesome cattle and passionate breeders. <cowboy>

 

[EaglesNest]

Thank you. I love the cows even the performance ones are great looking animals. I have both just enjoy my native flock little better. Haven't had to pull calf for none of them. That's big plus for me more like what I was use to with the true Salers. We had Salers since 82 and only had to ever assist two,one of which was breech.

 

[RyanChandler]

What's your definition of native?

 

[EaglesNest]

What's your definition of native?

Sorry for delay...yesterday was first time on site in long time. I have both mainstream shorthorns and natives. The natives are dual purpose and registered with AMSS they receive the N designation on reg papers but can be registered in ASA asterick free. Natives are traced back to coates herd book and original clay importation. 

Examples of some native sires more easily recognized with ASA members are: TPS coronet leader 21st, Kinnaber Leader 6th, kinnaber Leader 9th, Eionmor Port o Call 60, kenmar president, just to name a few.

Natives are the functional cattle found at Haumont Shorthorns in NE. His farm is one of the largest and oldest breeders of native shorthorns in US with I think 13-14 different cow families. But there are several others. I love them personally because I find them more functional than most of my non natives.  The natives are NOT maine infused and if they are bred to maine infused bull the resulting calf will not get N designation. Not sayin maines are bad just not what i wanna raise.

 

[garybob]

What's your definition of native?

Appendix-Free, and verified. There is a Separate registry with the AMSS, and, as far as I can tell ( from the outside, looking-in), are as pure Shorthorn as possible.

GB

 

[RyanChandler]

JIT has mentioned and even exposed multiple bulls that have been 'verified' native that have questionable at best pedigrees.  What say you? I just get a kick out of anyone that proposes ANYTHING that they can't personally verify as unadulterated gospel. 

 

[garybob]

JIT has mentioned and even exposed multiple bulls that have been 'verified' native that have questionable at best pedigrees.  What say you? I just get a kick out of anyone that proposes ANYTHING that they can't personally verify as unadulterated gospel.

Like I said......"from the outside, looking inward"....I'm only stating what is reported to be fact, by others, and have made no claims otherwise. I can tell you this......without hesitation, I'd come closer to believing that these old-time Sires & Dual-purpose cows are more pure than anything printed in a Popular Breeder's sale catalog.

GB

 

[Mark H]

Eaglesnest,

Just a point of fact:

Fullblood Black Salers from France were imported so it is possible yo habe a balck Salaer with 0% Angus.  In france in the saker region it is good luck to give a black caf to a newlywed couple.

 

[aj]

I challange your statement that any original fullblood Salers was black. Give me a registration number. There were no black Salers in France. The Salers became black once they came to the USA. I respectfully disagree.

 

[frostback]

Back when I helped quit a few Salers breeders I heard a rumor that there were black Salers. Said to be a recessive gene and when one was born it was considered bad luck and killed. That's why in France you didn't see many. Hadn't heard about the newlywed spin.

 

[knabe]

JIT has mentioned and even exposed multiple bulls that have been 'verified' native that have questionable at best pedigrees.  What say you? I just get a kick out of anyone that proposes ANYTHING that they can't personally verify as unadulterated gospel.

No one can verify anything. Who cares. Don't use them.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

If you use only pedigrees for elect Natives, I will agree that some animals can be not Native or 100% pure. We saw here in SP many comments regarding fake pedigrees.

Regarding black Salers. I will agree that only red are found in France and blackies are a product made by North American breeders. But can not sure that black animals can occur time by time on red population in France and that these ones are summarily discarted. Some historians tell that Devon was infusioned on Salers at 1800's and Devonshire is very close to Wales were Welsh Black cattle is widely spread. But this are only rumors as well.

Maybe some one could write to Salers Herd Book and ask a real question!

 

[knabe]

You mean if they have asterisk free or native cattle?

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Both.
My criteria for asterisk free is more restrictive, as I not consider animals with Irish blood ancestors as asterisk free as they show open pedigrees.
But as was discussed here, many bulls and cows show faked pedigrees, so only pedigree analyses is not enough to me declare an animal as pure.
I keep my oppinion that a deep DNA analyse will to be or possible will to be the answer for these possible pedigrees mistakes.
The technology today available will give us the answer, an accurate answer, not sure. Hope that yes.

 

[EaglesNest]

I challange your statement that any original fullblood Salers was black. Give me a registration number. There were no black Salers in France. The Salers became black once they came to the USA. I respectfully disagree.

I agree with you 100% I was a red Salers breeder and their blackness originated in US as a sorry attempt to " improve" them. They were fine all the years before that. Now sadly they have waned in popularity.

 

[Mark H]

Here is a link to a guy rasing black fullblood Salers:http://www.b-blivestock.com/id17.html
His black herd bull is named RTR MEGA MARK 139J Reg #TP557661 
Registration showing Black and fullblood status with the ASA: https://abri.une.edu.au/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=233021&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5C50275E5C27&9=5251
Have you seen some of the white (I mean Charolais white) purebreds produced in Canada.  They cam e from cattle upgraded from Charolais cross cows.  I am not making this one up either.
Learn about your breed before trying to call someone out.

 

[Mark H]

Here is a link to a guy rasing black fullblood Salers: http://www.b-blivestock.com/id17.html
His black herd bull is named RTR MEGA MARK 139J Reg #TP557661
Registration showing Black and fullblood status with the ASA: https://abri.une.edu.au/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=233021&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5C50275E5C27&9=5251
Have you seen some of the white (I mean Charolais white) purebreds produced in Canada.  They came from cattle upgraded from Charolais cross cows.  I am not making this one up either.
Learn about your breed before trying to call someone out.
Jst corrected some typos.

 

[Mark H]

Here is a link to a guy rasing black fullblood Salers: http://www.b-blivestock.com/id17.html
His black herd bull is named RTR MEGA MARK 139J Reg #TP557661
Registration showing Black and fullblood status with the ASA: https://abri.une.edu.au/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=233021&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5C50275E5C27&9=5251
Have you seen some of the white (I mean Charolais white) purebreds produced in Canada?  They came from cattle upgraded from Charolais cross cows.  I am not making this one up either.
Learn about your breed before trying to call someone out.
Just corrected some typos. I'll get this right eventually!)