Help please

[pjkjr4]

This afternoon, we went out to walk the steers since it was such a nice afternoon. I noticed that my son's steer's ears were a little droopy. When I got closer to him, his breathing was somewhat labored, but not bad. I thought that it was because of the humidity and no wind. After we walked them for about 15 minutes or so, we tied them up to the fence, and rinsed them. By this time, his breathing had kind of a noise to it. Kind of like when a person is asleep and snoring.

I attributed the ears drooping to the fact that yesterday evening before we started walking them, i gave him 1 1/2 cc of ace to calm him down. He's a little rambunxious (kicking and trying to head-butt anyone that tries to lead him). So I figured the drug had not completely worn off yet. He was also alot easier to catch today. But now I don't know. We fed before we left, and he didn't go eat. Kinda makes me think he maybe has some sort of bug. Should I give hime something, and if so what and how much.

Thanks

 

[cowz]

Call your vet ASAP.....sounds very much like pneumonia or a bad respiratory infecton.  Take his temp if you can before you call.  You will need to get a course of antibiotics in him very soon..IMO, that was not enough ace to give him a hangover....it should not be affecting his behavior a day later.

 

[DL]

Call your vet

A droopy ear is (almost) pathognomonic for a specific type of bacterial infection. Your vet should know this, however, your vet should also know that leaving you with ace to calm your steer is illegal - but heck, we are only producing food - not to worry.

 

[shortyjock89]

Call your vet

A droopy ear is (almost) pathognomonic for a specific type of bacterial infection. Your vet should know this, however, your vet should also know that leaving you with ace to calm your steer is illegal - but heck, we are only producing food - not to worry.

Please don't open the whole "ace" can of worms again.  Those who use it, will, and those who won't, won't.  I don't use it, but I haven't ever really had a situation where I would need to.

 

[DL]

Call your vet

A droopy ear is (almost) pathognomonic for a specific type of bacterial infection. Your vet should know this, however, your vet should also know that leaving you with ace to calm your steer is illegal - but heck, we are only producing food - not to worry.

Please don't open the whole "ace" can of worms again.  Those who use it, will, and those who won't, won't.  I don't use it, but I haven't ever really had a situation where I would need to.

the law is pretty clear - people - including veterinarians - break it all the time - doesn't make it right nor does it make it a can of worms - we who are producing food should at least be aware of the laws regarding drug use in food animals...

 

[Show Heifer]

I am going to assume that pj is a youngster. So, first off, your steer is sick. Call your vet and get a prescription for an antibiotic. Second, whoever gave you the ace, did you no favors. Especially in a food producing steer. So, when you talk to your vet, ask them about withdrawl time. Plus it will alert them to any reactions your calf might have with the antibiotic/ace interaction.

I am not sure when your show is, but if your steer is not safe to handle without the ace (head butting, ramming people, kicking) you might reconsider taking him and exposing others to the dangers of your steer.

Hope it isn't too late for your steer. Good Luck.

 

[knabe]

think how you are when you are sick.  you really want to get out and listen to commands?

let him recover, search for how to break a steer etc on this site.  lots of good info.

you can train a steer to do almost anything.  i think you could even teach them to leap on their hind legs if you wanted to for some reason.

most of the time when we "break" animals we are really trying to see how much irritation they can tolerate rather than understanding them.

 

[shortyjock89]

I am going to assume that pj is a youngster. So, first off, your steer is sick. Call your vet and get a prescription for an antibiotic. Second, whoever gave you the ace, did you no favors. Especially in a food producing steer. So, when you talk to your vet, ask them about withdrawl time. Plus it will alert them to any reactions your calf might have with the antibiotic/ace interaction.

I am not sure when your show is, but if your steer is not safe to handle without the ace (head butting, ramming people, kicking) you might reconsider taking him and exposing others to the dangers of your steer.

Hope it isn't too late for your steer. Good Luck.

It is clearly stated that it's his SON'S steer.

Sorry that I just wanted to keep a fight from starting like it ALWAYS does when Ace is discussed on here.  PMs are just as effective at notifiying someone of the law. 

And it kind of is my job.

 

[DL]

Sorry that I just wanted to keep a fight from starting like it ALWAYS does when Ace is discussed on here.  PMs are just as effective at notifiying someone of the law. 

And it kind of is my job.

Fight? Your job? New people show up here all the time - you want to take the responsibility of educating them all - one PM at a time - on AMDUCA and ELDU? Go for it...

 

[shortyjock89]

Keeping unnecessary squabbles from happening is kind of my job I mean.  I think it's great that you educate people.  You have really never seen or taken part in an argument on here over Ace/Thorazine/Bute? 

Maybe I'm in the wrong, but so be it I suppose.

 

[knabe]

Keeping unnecessary squabbles from happening is kind of my job I mean. 

i can't remember where it says who the moderators are, but perhaps what OFS means is that they are a moderator?

s

 

[pjkjr4]

Thank you to all the people that are concerned.

First of all, this evening I got ahold of the vet. I got 25cc of Baytril that I will give him first thing in the morning. He said that should clear him up in 2-3 days.

I'm sorry I ever brought up the whole ace thing. I never meant to do any harm, and I haven't. This is a show steer for my now turned 8 year old boy. He is a September calf, so if the withdrawal on that is under 8 months, then I guess I'm in MAJOR TROUBLE. Excuse me for trying to keep my child from getting hurt. I know you're thinking "you just need to work with him more". Well let me tell you, there is probably not a family within 50 miles of us that works with their calves harder or more often than we do. We have another calf for my soon to be 12 year old daughter that is a complete puppy dog. The hard work has paid off for him, but not the other. Some calves are just like that. Maybe I'm just a little slow or naive, but I'm not giving up hope on this calf yet. What message would that send to my kids?

Yes, we are feeding this calf for human consumption, but it's our own consumption. I know that this calf is not going to make the sale in OKC in March, so it will go to our local butcher to be processed and then to our own freezer.


I apologize for rufflling any feathers; you make the judgment of whether or not what I did was unethical, but I pray that you would do whatever you thought was the best/safest way for a youngster.

 

[DL]

No feathers ruffled here - I just think it is important that people raising food for human consumption know and consider the laws when they give their animals drugs - most people don't even know what ELDU and AMDUCA are -

 

[Show Heifer]

pj4, your right, sometimes calves are not meant to be show cattle, so therefore they shouldn't be used as show cattle. Do not get your son hurt. Just do not show the calf. Problem solved.
I am not sure of the withdrawl of ace.... what did your vet say?  Or maybe that wasn't mentioned?

Anyway... good luck showing a calf that your 8 year old boy seems to be struggling with..... I hope no one gets hurt when you take him to the fair.

 

[pjkjr4]

First off, I never said that I was given the ace by the vet, and in fact I wasn't. Secondly,(for those of you that didn't catch it the first time I posted it) this is a fall-born steer that will be 1 year-old in September, so there is alot of time to work with him, and get him calmed down befor our county show (Feb), district show, (late Feb-early Mar), and state show (Mar). Like I said before, maybe I'm too naive, but I won't give up hope this early in the year. I was raised that when I take on a task, to never quit. To me, that is worse than giving a drug to help me during what seems to be a prolonged breaking period. This has been going on since March, and frankly has gotten worse since we started.

Yes, it has been a good bit of time since I was around show cattle very much. The last show steer I was around was the last one that I had which was in 1990. I have been getting advise from people that I trust, and are highly respected people (in the industry and as people), and they both mentioned using ace for a short period of time. They also mentioned that they never had to use it more than 2 or 3 times, and that the cattle remember what happened to them while being a little dazed. After weighing the positives and the negatives, I decided to try it.

Back to the reason I started this thread (some of you could probably care less at this point, and wish I would just go away, but I'll tell you anyway); I went out and found him laying down in the pen with the other steer this morning. The rales didn't seem to be near as prevalent as they were yesterday evening. He got up and streched good (which I was glad to see). I gave him 25cc of Baytril, and dumped out some feed for him, to which he started to devour. I would assume that his body was doing a pretty good job of trying to fight the infection on its own. Now we'll just wait and see.

Thanks to those of you that have tried to help.

 

[DL]

In my book the most important attribute of a steer for a youngster is temperament - a steer that head butts and kicks may not be appropriate or ideal for an 8 year old - particularly since you say he is getting worse since March -

but a priceless teachable moment for all the youth out there - obtain (illegally) a prescription drug not licensed for use in cattle  from a "friend you trust" who is not a veterinarian - give it to the steer (again, illegally) that is getting worse since March because you were taught"never to give up" - great way to show kids by example how to play by the rules

you are right - some steers are like that - some steers should be freezer beef

 

[simtal]

but a priceless teachable moment for all the youth out there - obtain (illegally) a prescription drug not licensed for use in cattle  from a "friend you trust" who is not a veterinarian - give it to the steer (again, illegally) that is getting worse since March because you were taught"never to give up" - great way to show kids by example how to play by the rules

all hail the almighty DVM, which has dominion over all animals, blah, blah, blah

 

[pjkjr4]

DL and Showheifer, ever have this kind of a problem with one of your children's animals?? Let me know how you dealt with it; I'd really like to know.

Also, I was merely asking for advice. Not your approval. If this is so illegal, why was I able to go to a vet supply store and buy it over the counter? Also, how many drugs are only to be administered by a vet? What are they? What do they do?  I certainly didn't mean for this thread to get steered in this direction, but since you're the expert on the laws of this, please tell me.

 

[knabe]

i'm gonna back DL on this one.  

time is not necessarily the issue here.  some animals require a little bit more sequenced training and less of a cuddling approach.  the vast majority of animals don't need it.  but for those that do, a narrow set of rules and respect for their behavior will help in the long run.

the key here is to intercept the head lowering.  pulling on the halter is the last thing you want to do.  you want to let it have slack before he does the head shake lower thing.  sometimes they will just put their head up.  work on getting them to tip their head your way and not worry about them moving their feet yet, then release.  build on that.  work on both sides.  get them to go in a circle and move their OUTSIDE back foot backwards, then release the halter and scratch.  do this on both sides.  too often, animals get used to working with one eye, and then you take them to a ring with other animals, and they just aren't as good.

trust of people has nothing to do with anything.  you need trust with that animal.  don't EVER let a steer rub on you.  the only time i would ever let an animal lower their head (other than eating or drinking) is if i was crouching and asked them to lower their head or if they wanted behind their poll or behind their ears scratched.  other than that, no way.  believe it or not, it is extremely easy to hold (not by tension on the lead) their head down and have them walk around you while you are crouched and their head lowered.

get one of the calf breaking videos.  a guy can always learn something.  sometimes a frustrated calf can make a frustrated kid.

 

[DL]

DL and Showheifer, ever have this kind of a problem with one of your children's animals?? Let me know how you dealt with it; I'd really like to know.

Also, I was merely asking for advice. Not your approval. If this is so illegal, why was I able to go to a vet supply store and buy it over the counter? Also, how many drugs are only to be administered by a vet? What are they? What do they do?  I certainly didn't mean for this thread to get steered in this direction, but since you're the expert on the laws of this, please tell me.

I do not make the rules, but I think it is important for producers to know what the laws and rules are regarding use of drugs in animals produced for food. Educate yourself and read the labels. Like not stopping at a stop sign, it is your choice to follow the law or not, but you need to know the law. If you (generic you) do not like the laws and rules - take it up with the FDA - respond when they ask for comments. Don't shoot the messenger.

Briefly the law is very specific - and basically says that any use of drugs "off label" (ie not exactly according to what the label says) is considered extra label and must meet certain requirements - including that ELDU is illegal (cannot be used) unless the well being of the animal is in jeopardy. There are also drugs that are specifically banned from use in food animals (ie cannot be used extra label) - people have done jail time for using them.

Ace is not approved for use in cattle so therefore its use to calm a wild steer is illegal. Do I know that it is used all the time - absolutely. Do I know that other drugs are used illegally - absolutely - but I am not willing to risk my license so someone can get a purple ribbon

ELDU (extra label drug use) and AMDUCA go to http://www.avma.org/reference/amduca/amduca1.asp
http://cpharm.vetmed.vt.edu/vm8784/AMDUCA/amduca.htm
http://nmconline.org/articles/ELDU_AMDUCA.pdf

I rank temperament above all else in my cattle - life is too short to deal with cattle with bad attitude no matter how "good they are" - how cattle behave is a combination of genetics, environment, the handlers attitude and expectations - I don't tolerate kicking or head butting with malice - I don't think your steer would have lasted very long on my farm - At my place, I am the boss cow - a cow with malice is a bovine on the bun